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Head nut torque with solid copper gasket
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Glenn Crawford



Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 68
Location: Dorset, SW England

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So.. you Hylomar enthusiasts... if I am forced down the route of using a jointing compound it might as well be that as Wellseal (which others are urging me to use) or Loctite 573 "flange sealant". But when the head has to come off next - say to lap the valves in in 5 years' time - what's it like getting old Hylomar off the faces of the head and block?

This is a customer's car, not my own, and I don't want to feel my ears glowing cherry-red as I get blamed for a potentially horrendous task!

(An aside - yes, definitely the solid copper gasket must be annealed before each use. I don't know whether this was done on this engine. And I measured the gasket - it's 1.75mm / .070" thick, not 0.5mm / 0.020" as I thought, a mighty slab of copper indeed. Why should it be leaking I wonder?)
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47p2



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2002
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be worth having a word with some of the Riley Clubs. I'm sure there are plenty experts there who will have done the job before and be able to advise
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Glenn Crawford



Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 68
Location: Dorset, SW England

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, I'm on my own here as the solid copper gasket is non-standard. It has allegedly been recently fitted to reduce the compression of the engine - it's far thicker than the standard copper-composite gasket. Thanks for the idea though!
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenn, I think that you should have made it clear at the beginning of this thread that you are doing this for a living...
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6177
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: Head nut torque with solid copper gasket Reply with quote

Glenn Crawford wrote:
I've a pre-war car in my workshop (it's a Riley Nine) which has come in to have its head torqued down.


In fairness UJ I think Glenn did indicate he was trade.

I have needed to remove Hylomar (was this a trick question I ask myself Wink ) and it was no different to removing Hermetite. ie. not a problem although it wasn't years thereafter.

On my old Jag copper asbestos gaskets are a No No as the factory had problems with them early in production. The problem was bore distortion and this was discovered after trying the head with no gasket. So for the last 70 years the correct gasket has been a simple copper sheet with compressible corrugations around the aperatures.

Peter
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Last edited by peter scott on Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm an amateur, but often use the word workshop for my garage, therefore I think that to say ''in my workshop'' was ambiguous to say the least. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Glenn Crawford



Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 68
Location: Dorset, SW England

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to veer to far off-topic... but yes, I did mean "workshop", and yes, in 2006 I turned the hobby of many years into my livelihood. I'd like to think that the question is none the less valid for that! I didn't state explicitly that I'm running a business because that seemed too close to advertising my services.

Anyway, who'd use a classic car fixer who doesn't even know how tightly to pull down a solid copper head gasket, eh? (and I still don't...!!!)
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 21021
Location: North-west UK

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understood it to be a 'trade' question too, not that it matters anyway, more the merrier and an interesting topic that hasn't been brought up before. In fact, it'd be interesting to hear from Glenn about how he found it, going from it being a hobby to a bread earner - any regrets? is it going to plan?

Rick
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm actually quite annoyed with myself that I didnt realise that this was a Trade question. If I had done so, then I would NOT have answered! Or at least, requested a payment for my time before I did so. I have zero problems with trying to help non-pros, as you all well know.

But lets face it, a pro asking for help from ams is no pro. At the very least, if word gets around that a pro is asking for help from ams, it can ruin his or her business. After all, who would trust someone like that? I wouldnt, for one!

As you might guess from my wording, I feel very strongly about this. At the very least, I expect that in the future, any pro members make it clear that they are so when posting.
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Glenn Crawford



Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 68
Location: Dorset, SW England

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mr Rick of Admin,
I have inadvertently upset Uncle Joe whose valuable advice appears all over the place, and for which I apologise. This is now most definitely off-topic. But seeing as you ask, I'll start a new thread elsewhere on converting from amateur to paid amateur (not pro), when I get a spare moment and have stopped this accursed head gasket leak.

Thanks for all your responses, as a result of which I'm looking at Hylomar (or equivalent) as a last resort, and with standard or perhaps mildly increased head stud torque. But no head joint on a traditional cast-iron Thirties engine should need anything other than a decent gasket in good condition, surely, and if it does it suggests there's something amiss, a warped head or damaged block face probably. That's what I need to get to the bottom of and I'll report back in a week or two when it's clear what is going on. - Glenn
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Rick
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uncle Joe wrote:
I'm actually quite annoyed with myself that I didnt realise that this was a Trade question. If I had done so, then I would NOT have answered! Or at least, requested a payment for my time before I did so. I have zero problems with trying to help non-pros, as you all well know.

But lets face it, a pro asking for help from ams is no pro. At the very least, if word gets around that a pro is asking for help from ams, it can ruin his or her business. After all, who would trust someone like that? I wouldnt, for one!

As you might guess from my wording, I feel very strongly about this. At the very least, I expect that in the future, any pro members make it clear that they are so when posting.


Sorry UJ but I've set no requirement for pro's to 'come clean' before posting (the poster didn't hide the fact anyway), and I'm not going to start one now.

So long as topics are on the subject of old cars or other similar vehicles, then that fits in with the ethos of the forum just fine. If someone doesn't want to reply then thats their choice. Making anyone with either a valid contribution, or valid question for the forum, feel unwelcome here just because they are in the old car business goes against everything I try to achieve with the forum. Turning people away from the forum, who may well have useful replies for topics others have posted on here, with replies like that does no good whatsoever.

Uncle Joe wrote:

But lets face it, a pro asking for help from ams is no pro. At the very least, if word gets around that a pro is asking for help from ams, it can ruin his or her business.


Rubbish. Just because a pro asks a question of others, doesn't automatically make them an amateur. Find me one person who knows everything about every type of car, and never has to ask others for advice (pro or am).

Uncle Joe wrote:

Or at least, requested a payment for my time before I did so.


Does this mean that if I post a question on here, and someone 'in the business' can help with an answer, that they should invoice me for the advice they give? no.

I'm disappointed that Glenn's interesting thread has descended to this level, but I couldn't let UJs post go unanswered.

Rick
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 21021
Location: North-west UK

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenn Crawford wrote:
Dear Mr Rick of Admin,
I have inadvertently upset Uncle Joe whose valuable advice appears all over the place, and for which I apologise.


No need to apologise Glenn. I hope you get your gasket issue sorted, it'd be good to hear how things go.

rgd, Rick
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick, as I said, I feel very strongly about this.

In view of your reply, please remove me from the membership list.

Thankyou.
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6177
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey UJ,

I hope you'll change your mind on leaving the forum. You're a great contributor and I'm sure lots of members would miss you.

Peter.
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
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Location: North-west UK

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry you feel like that UJ, you've long supported the forum and that has been appreciated.

However if embracing members who have an interest in vintage and classic car topics, where it is also part of their livelihood, is something you're not comfortable with, then that is your decision. If I was the original poster, I'd not be bothering to return.

My view is this - so long as everyone takes part in a constructive and polite manner, then I couldn't care less if they also earn a living from what others choose to be their hobby only.

rgds, Rick.
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