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Rdover
Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 413
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Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:39 pm Post subject: Gear oil for Veteran car gearbox |
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Having just finished having my 102 year old gearbox restored with new bearings, 3rd and 4th gears and other parts refinished I now have it back together and ready to reinstall. My question is .... which gear oil should I use?
It is a fully crash gearbox with and H pattern (ie the gears only crash in one direction as opposed to an epicyclic gearbox) and when I got it it it had (I assume) EP90. I know a heavier gear oil will help with gear changes but I'm sure the semi-fluid grease I replaced it with was far too heavy.
So I can go for EP90 or SAE100 gear oil (I've got a mere 20 litres of that donated by Fuchs Oil) or maybe 140 or 250 transoil as I use in the diff. I need about 5 or 7 litres.
What does the collective suggest. _________________ Richard |
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Rdover
Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 413
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Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Edit ... the fuchs oil is RENOLIT EP 00 _________________ Richard |
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colwyn500
Joined: 21 Oct 2012 Posts: 1745 Location: Nairn, Scotland
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Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Richard, from the little I know about gear oils with my relatively modern cars I would avoid Extreme Pressure oils which can be detrimental to certain yellow alloys such as you find in older gearboxes. I use a straight SAE 140 in the back axle and SAE 40 in the gearbox of the old Austin. Someone will put me right (please) but I think gear oil numbers are not relative to engine oils so a 140 gear-oil is not really so much more viscous than might be implied by the high number Having said that it is very thick so I would be inclined towards a 40 or 50 classic engine oil which is around the viscosity of EP 90 to the best of my knowledge. |
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Rick Site Admin
Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 22449 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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As Colwyn points out, EPs can be bad news for old old gearboxes (so I was told), the bronze bushes not coping well with it. I think it explains why my Dodge's box (91 years old this year) is a touch vocal. The oil, when I drained it, looked quite lightweight and glistened with a metallic look to it.
I run something heavy in it now, 600w grade also called steam oil. The brand I used was Penrite, their Transoil 250. Previously I could barely get a gear. The only downside is that I find it best to let the car warm up at standstill for several minutes before venturing down the road, to let the oil heat up a bit. Once up and running, it's fine for the rest of the day.
RJ _________________ Rick - Admin
Home:https://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk
Videos:https://www.youtube.com/user/oldclassiccarRJ/videos
OCC & classic car merchandise (Austin, Ford ++):
https://www.redbubble.com/people/OldClassicCar/shop |
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Rdover
Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 413
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Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Rick
I use Penrite oils throughout; MTH for the engine, changed from Transoil 140 to 250 when I rebuilt the back axle a couple of years ago mainly to reduce leakage.
I'll look into using the 250 for the gearbox. _________________ Richard |
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goneps
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 Posts: 601 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Probably your best bet would be to consult Penrite's technical bods via their web site http://www.penriteoil.com.au/contact.php.
EP oil would not be necessary for a car of that age, and as mentioned by others traditional EP additives used a sulphur base that attacks copper alloys, the proportion increasing with the Gear Loading number.
However, there are now modern EP oils formulated with synthetic additives that will not attack yellow metals. I now use Gear Oil 140 Mineral (http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=4&id_products=373) in the Morris Eight.
Usual disclaimer.
Richard
Last edited by goneps on Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Phil - Nottingham
Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 1252 Location: Nottingham
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Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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Irrespective as to whether modern EP additives cause damage to brass bushings etc (they certainly did years go) EP oils are just not needed in old as they are designed for hypoid bevel back axles and these are relatively "modern" _________________ Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2 |
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ka
Joined: 03 Dec 2007 Posts: 600 Location: Orkney.
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Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:50 am Post subject: |
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The Morgan gearbox is a crude, but cheap affair. HFS was not well known for spending tuppence, when he could get away with a penny. The gearbox started as a bevel box, with the pourable grease, but in the late 20's early 30's models it moved to having three forward and one reverse, but through a worm and wheel that continues to amuse owners. I have heard of an experimental box with crown and pinion, but very rare. The worm whilst hardened steel, was running against a bronze wheel, which is where the oil discussion comes in.
Morgans run a straight 130 or 190 grade which requires double de clutching even going up the box when cold, but thinned when warm. The primary disadvantage with this treacle consistency, particularly when cold, was than the centrifugal effect of the shafts, flung the gloop to the outsides of the box, cavitating and leaving the shafts to run almost dry, the main advantage of the consistency, was that is slowed the leaks down.
When I rebuilt mine last time, I looked for a thinner oil, that would lubricate, but also would not eat the bronze wheel, (EP oils do), and after conversations with Morris competition and development dept., they suggested (wait for it, shock horror,) their fully synthetic oil. So I use fully synthetic, 5/30, easy to obtain, excellent lubricating and pressure attributes, but finds even the smallest of gaps in seals. Whilst I do not purposfully change the oil, when I get the lid off the box, it is still translucent and not full of bronze. The advantages are better lubrication, hot or cold, no cavitation, and no need to double de clutch going up the box. _________________ KA
Better three than four. |
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peter scott
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 7119 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:28 am Post subject: |
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+1 for fully synthetic.
Peter _________________ http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon |
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Rdover
Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 413
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Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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The guy who rebuilt the gearbox suggested ATF Dexron3.
It's an expensive mistake to make tho _________________ Richard |
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Phil - Nottingham
Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 1252 Location: Nottingham
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Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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ATF is really hydraulic oil which I would think far far too thin for large tolerance big gears _________________ Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2 |
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colwyn500
Joined: 21 Oct 2012 Posts: 1745 Location: Nairn, Scotland
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Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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Phil - Nottingham wrote: | ATF is really hydraulic oil which I would think far far too thin for large tolerance big gears |
...and it's horrible stuff...I used to work on hydrostatic gearboxes and it really is a specialised fluid. |
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goneps
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 Posts: 601 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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colwyn500 wrote: | Phil - Nottingham wrote: | ATF is really hydraulic oil which I would think far far too thin for large tolerance big gears |
...and it's horrible stuff...I used to work on hydrostatic gearboxes and it really is a specialised fluid. |
And its lubricating qualities are limited since it's formulated to allow the friction material of the bands and clutches to grip while immersed in it. |
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Ray White
Joined: 02 Dec 2014 Posts: 6319 Location: Derby
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Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Rick; our 1920's crash boxes both use steam cylinder oil.
I use 620w and although this is o.k., I was finding it difficult to make clean changes due (probably) to wear.
I found the gearbox was transformed by STP gearbox oil additive.(450 ml). I have to admit to being pleasantly surprised but would not recommend any form of additive because there is really no substitute for the correct oil in the first place.
Other users have told me that they use 1000W steam oil which is probably better still. |
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Rdover
Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 413
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:17 am Post subject: |
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I've conducted my research and had a nice chat with the technical guy at Penrite who passed the enquiry to the experts in Oz and the consensus is Penrite Mild EP 110.
http://store.forestlubricants.co.uk/penrite-mild-ep-gear-oil-sae-110/
Quote: | Product Description
MILD EP GEAR OIL is a SAE 110 extreme pressure automotive gear oil meeting the requirements of API GL-4 for moderate to high load applications.
Product Benefits
• Protects against wear.
• Good anti-friction characteristics.
• Compatible with copper alloy components.
• Protects against corrosion.
• Suitable where a SAE 90 grade is recommended.
• Suitable where SAE 140 oils were also recommended.
• Increased load carrying capacity. |
Although classed as EP with GL4 compatibility it is, I'm told, formulated not to eat brass bushings. It's not cheap but it should last long enough. _________________ Richard |
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