Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[mikeC]

There were many cars of the 'fifties and 'sixties which had 'flawed' rear suspension, most notably the VW beetle and its cousin the Porsche 356. Denis Jenkinson famously said that the only people who criticised the Porsche's handling were people who couldn't drive!
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in the garage: 1938 Talbot Ten Airline
Recently departed: 1953 Lancia Appia, 1931 Austin Seven, 1967 Singer Chamois, 1914 Saxon, 1930 Morris Cowley, 1936 BSA Scout, 1958 Lancia Appia coupe, 1922 Star 11.9 ... the list goes on!

[Ray White]

[alastairq]

Does anyone recall the media vilification that Skoda underwent in the '70's and '80's with the Estelle?

Or the Triumph Herald?

All down to swing axle rear suspension.....and a new awareness that new age drivers didn't expect to have to exercise driving 'skills' in order to progress in the way they fancied?
Something they still don't feel they should have to do today?

In the USA, there is the example of the Chevrolet Corvair? Similar vilification?

As an aside, manufacturers were acutely aware of the customer base they had to allow for.
For example [one I know about]...Ford, when they developed the Mustang, had produced a fine-handling car for spirited driving!
They then realised that, spirited driving meant the driver having to exercise a fair degree of good vehicle control!

Something which was out of the question given the broader customer base.
So they re-jigged the front suspension geometry to create what us lot on here would describe as a ''poorer handling'' car.....in other words, they deliberately induced a greater degree of understeer when pushed into bends...as the average customer would be likely to do by mistake [not expected to know any better, in other words?}

When Shelby produced his own branded versions of the Mustang, the front suspension geometry was simply re-positioned back to where Ford had it originally...[actually, a simple matter of drilling two holes in the structure, each side....following a jig....and bolting everything up once more]
This had the immediate effect [once settled] of increasing the front negative camber, & lowering the ride height[by about an inch]...making the whole plot much sharper turning i the bends....In other words, reducing the tendency to understeer.
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Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
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Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.

[Ray White]

Most of the problems associated with swing axle designs were made worse - not by the driver - but by incorrect tyre pressures. In a strategy called 'tyre pressure differential' it was established that the rear tyres should be set to a higher pressure than the front.

The problems came when the inexperienced person thought to make all four wheels the same pressure or even have the front pressures more than the rear.

[alastairq]

[Penman]

As an 81 yr old driver who retired from a 44yr instructing career in 2014 and then took on a dual control courtesy car ferrying job for a crash repair company until the middle of 2021when I overnight went from binocular vision to monocular, I told my employer that I didn't think his insurance company or the customers would be happy with me being monocular. I can still on some days do better than 6/12 and close to 6/7.5 with my right eye so I can do them occasional supermarket run. I wouldn't do any long runs because width/distance and speed judgement is more compromised if the weather turns bad or at night, also my eyedrops routine limits the length of my driving day.
I actually do an eyesight test every time before I decide whether to have a drive.
I also during the late '90s and 2000s took and passed at gold level a number of RoADAR tests.

There may be some who fit your last 2 sentences, but mdon't tar us all with the same brush.
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Bristols should always come in pairs.

Any 2 from:-
Straight 6
V8 V10

[alastairq]

[Ray White]

Even those who do bother to raise their game can find they still have a mountain to climb. I took my advanced driver's test many years ago and at that time it was regarded by many as the gold standard. ( Not to Police standards but that is a different thing.)

As time has gone on, however, general driving has become a different game and the various bodies who offer advanced courses/tests etc. have all brought out additional "higher" standard tests. The IAM for example, in addition to their standard test now have a "masters" certificate.

This puts a dent into the pride of those IAM members who smugly think they are the 'bees knees' behind the wheel but it is none the less another higher qualification.

At first many dismissed it as just another money making scheme and I have to admit being among their number.

Unless you need extra Brownie Points for a job or suchlike, there seems little point. I for one see no value in it to me and will not be trying to impress anyone with my driving.

I was once asked by the late Ted Clements (former Chief Examiner of the IAM) if I thought that I was "a good driver"? I remember quite clearly replying that I thought that I was a "safe" driver rather than a good one. He seemed quite happy with that.

/

[Penman]

Ray one of the reasons I went the RoADAR route was because at that time IAM was a "been there done that done need to do it again test" whereas RoADAR has a retest schedule Bronze-1yr, Silver 2yrs and Gold 3yrs.
One aspect of their tests which I have been known to do in regular everyday driving is to practice commentary driving for anything up to between 15 and 30mins at a time.
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Bristols should always come in pairs.

Any 2 from:-
Straight 6
V8 V10

[alastairq]

I agree..

I never felt inclined to go for those 'scout badges' of driving.

On many of our courses where I worked, the textbook was Roadcraft.

Also interesting were the [Home Office-sponsored] courses periodically run to train folk to use the Green Goddess emergency fire appliance...AKA supah doopah water pump.
This involved a 'blue light' driving course....

In a Green Goddess?

Blue light courses aren't quite what the ordinary car driver imagines them to be.

But I always felt Roadcraft was a handier way of upgrading one's driver skills, if followed.
That is, if one has overcome the ''bragging-rights'' tendencies that I felt were attached to most 'advanced' driver courses?

Personally, I do my own thing, driving-wise. Make use of all that I had learnt, or picked up, over the decades...

The one main thing that I know driving instructors of all types, will pick up very quickly, is a more acute, refined sense of being able to anticipate what others will be doing, seconds before they do it.
One can see issues developing long before one's drive can.....

Carry this over to one's personal driving, and things will only very rarely catch one out.


I rarely get angered over what I see others do.
The response for me is more a sense of ''disappointment'' in others.

I don't feel inclined to attempt to educate others either...[unless I was paid to do so]....I leave folk to simply ''get on with it''..

The ''humility' comes from understanding that one is only as good a driver as the next few minutes behind the wheel.
Regardless of what badges are on one's grill , or what 'training' one has undergone.

In my view, the biggest leap forwards this country has taken regarding driver education, are the 5 yearly LGV driver courses.
Now there is at least some chance of LGV drivers getting their driver skills refreshed periodically....rather than, once in a lifetime?

A pity this cannot be applied to car drivers?

When I worked at my last job, I never undertook any form of driver training [aside from licence confirmation]...

I did undertake a lot of Instructor training, however...not just for specific courses or vehicles, but also ''teacher/instructor'' training. In other words, how to teach or instruct, assess, etc, rather than specific nut and bolt stuff.

Also, examiner training...which isn't quite what most people would think, either. { It takes a lot to understand how much 'benefit of the doubt' to exercise towards a candidate]
Where I worked, we all had access to a wide variety of ''driving'' courses to run, or be involved with.

All involving teaching different driver skills.


The ability to drive to a high standard was pretty much taken for granted, but was frequently assessed by DSA [DVSA now] assessors.
For those assessments, we all undertook assessment by our peers[IE, those who were qualified and authorised by the DSA to undertake assessments]...for a few days prior to the ''assessment''...

All great fun, and provided a nice break from our 'core' employment....
2 1/2 hours out on assessment, including manoeuvres...usually in a vehicle type of their choice, not ours....
Lots and lots of opportunity, time-wise , to make and accrue driver faults.
In fact, time, is the only way to make any driving test harder......just make the test longer, giving more opportunity for the candidate to commit driving faults.

I was always told beforehand to make at last one fault for the assessor to pick up on.....
The 'pass' mark was 7 faults for us, not sure what the actual DSA 'pass' mark was?
Any more than that, and the candidate went away, remedial trained, to undergo assessment in a few days time.

Always amused me how many of our line managers had to undergo remedial driver training.....
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.

[Ray White]

Getting back to that 4 litre Sunbeam Talbot. I would be interested in hearing how others would go about restoring the drivers seat. It would be impossible to re cover without looking out of place against the rest of the interior which has a nice patina.

This is something which seems to spoil so many restorations.

[bjacko]

You said you would be hard pressed to roll a Beetle . When I first came to Australia in 1961 I was taking some friends for a drive in my new 105 Anglia
in country Victoria, when I was about 80 metres from the next RH corner, which was not a sharp bend, a Beetle came rolling over and over along the road, as I stopped it rolled past my off side and stopped right way up. We went to help and the driver was in the back seat laughing like a clown and the vehicle smelt like a brewery. No help needed.
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1938 Morris 8 Ser II Coupe Utility (Pickup)
1985 Rover SD1 VDP

[Ray White]

I think I was comparing a Renault Dauphine which weighs in at 1433 lbs. and the Beetle...which by comparison weighs approx 1800 lbs. I think that - and the aforementioned tyre pressures - is why the former had such a bad reputation for loosing control. Anyway, as I said, by 1960 the suspension had been revised with what was known as "aerostable" units inboard of the coils at the back and extra rubber springs at the front.

I stand by what I said because a Beetle - despite it's shortcomings - is a far more stable vehicle although the later cars were fine and besides, many earlier cars were retrospectively modified.

In fact I rather like the Gordoni and Odine designs ...and if they were that bad, they wouldn't have sold over 2 million!