Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
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buzzy bee
Joined: 23 Nov 2007 Posts: 3382 Location: South Cheshire
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: Wastage |
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Hi
I am unsure where this should go catagory wise, but I want to ask about wastage!
I was having a discussion today, once a bolt or nut leaves the box, it has to be scrapped, even if it is not used, why, the excuse was health and safety, the same goes with all consumables.
There was other points in the discusion, but I won't post them here, as they are regards to teaching the engineers of tomorow in the wrong way in my oppinion.
So what is everyones views, is it stupid and wastefull, or is this the way things should continue?
Cheers
Dave |
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Rick Site Admin
Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 22449 Location: UK
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peppiB
Joined: 30 Jun 2008 Posts: 686 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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It is PC society gone bananas. If it is not hermetically (sp) sealed it is not fit for use. Poppycock!!!! |
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Greeney in France
Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 1173 Location: Limousin area of France
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Its what comes of the litigation society if its been out of the sealed bag it may have got a fleck of dust on it that may cause or be said to possibly cause a failure of a component. poppycock is a polite word for it _________________ www.OldFrenchCars.com
We do these things not to escape life but to prevent life escaping us |
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peppiB
Joined: 30 Jun 2008 Posts: 686 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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I am always polite in public Greeney. You should hear me in private!! |
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buzzy bee
Joined: 23 Nov 2007 Posts: 3382 Location: South Cheshire
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
Glad I am not alone, stood up for myself a bit, and said no matter what is said, here is my oppinion. When the raised voices and talking over me came about, I politely left the room.
Cheers
Dave |
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eddieg
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 16
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: waste |
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Yep, fully agree. On the point about educating the enginners of tommorrow - fully agree too.
This approach will never educate an engineer - it will only train a 'rule or procedure follower'. An engineer is a more creative and innovative soul - someone with the knowledge and skills to properly assess the bit thats fallen out of the package to make a judgement if its still fit for purpose or not. S(he) may be called upon to bring experience to bear and/or organise (in an extreme case) non destructive testing techniques or computer analysis based on the theory underlying how the thing might fail.
This is no doubt taking things to ridiculous extremes for a nut, but only to illustrate the difference difference between a rule follower and an engineer. Of course the 'engineering' approach does not come without additional cost - so economically ( as well as to comply with HS legislation) is may be better to just use a new nut - with the associaed waste of the old one. Thats the arguement used by car maintenance providers ( who are not engineers) to replace items in cars rather than repairing them - when possible.
Thats my pennyworth anyway!
EddieG |
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buzzy bee
Joined: 23 Nov 2007 Posts: 3382 Location: South Cheshire
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
The bit that really touched a peg with me, as it happened after going to college, they teach you all this stuff, use a new bolt here, scrap that old one, get it from the stores.
You get to work, and you don't have a huge stores, you use what ever you can find in the van or in the workshop to make a repair and get you back working. When I tried to start pointing this out, keeping some spare nuts on the tolley's it was met with some anger I felt, this is when I left the room. My tool box in the workshop is littered with nuts etc, if I am repairing someting, I will look there first, then if not will go to the stores. When educating people they need to be taught in the same way that they will be expected to work in industry, this is agricultural engineering aswell, not precision!
I am ranting now, so will shut up!
Cheers
Dave |
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47p2
Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 2009 Location: Glasgow
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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It seems to be in all industries, that the wastage is a major expense.
The brickies who did the blockwork on the garage thought nothing of throwing mortar away at the end of the day, ordering timber ('it will come in handy for the rest of the build') and various other things, all which costs me money. I think the problem was that they were used to working on a large site where money was not an object. _________________ ROVER
One of Britain's Fine Cars |
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PAUL BEAUMONT
Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Posts: 1281 Location: Barnsley S. Yorks
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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My bro in Law runs his own small double glazing business. He once told me that one of the lessons he had to learn early on was, if you drop a box of screws when fitting a bed room window, you pick them up - not get a new box off the van.
Makes you wonder how the modern story that bigger is more efficient really works in practice!
PAUL |
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buzzy bee
Joined: 23 Nov 2007 Posts: 3382 Location: South Cheshire
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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The bigger the company the bigger the losses they can stand!
Another thing that winds me up, is i am doing a project, spending lots of time on it, and then someone over rules my point as it isn't as cost effective as using a £2 plastic version, do large concearns not grasp that all this time is the majour cost, not the odd part.
Well, it is a waste of time trying to explain, so I will go with the flow for another month or so, and when i have had enough, I will stand up again. Makes me feel better!
Cheers
Dave |
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the fly
Joined: 11 Jul 2008 Posts: 95
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Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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where are the H AND S oiks when we are trying to put a 30 cwt track back on with a couple of crow bars up to the knees in mud my gues is hiding in a over heated kenel counting the minuets to knock off time .A couple of things i was taught that in my early working life that has stood me in good stead were WASTE NOT WANT NOT AND COMMON SENSE . Ok ile shut up now GRRR. Regards the fly |
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magic9r
Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Posts: 33
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Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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There are critical areas where you always reassemble with new fasteners, in all other places it should be at the discretion of the engineer doing the job.
I too hate blind followers of rules, they follow rules blindly because they lack the skill and mental ability to analyse & solve a problem in a reasoned way,
Regards,
Nick |
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roverdriver
Joined: 18 Oct 2008 Posts: 1210 Location: 100 miles from Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: |
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It seems that we have entered an age where too much is based on theory and the 'book' and too little based on knowledge, experience and common sense- in fact common sense, and thinking for yourself, seems to be something that the powers that be want to phase out of existence.
On waste in an industrial scale it is well worth reading Henry Ford's book 'The Great Today and The Greater Future'. It shows that we have learned very little, and in fact have gone backwards since he set his ideas in place in 1923.
In a work situation, there must be a balance between cost/waste of material and cost/waste of labour- is it more efficient for the carpenter to bend and pick up the nail he just dropped, or should he take a new one out of his bag.
I have always lived by the rule that almost any item can be used and re-used, provided some thought is applied to that item's condition and the application to which it is being used. I will rarely use a new nut or bolt if a good second-hand one is nearby, that is unless that nut or bolt is going to be subjected to high stress for its size. Fortunately, as I am usually doing the job for myself, labour costs are not part of the equation, only my desire to re-use, coupled with a hate of unnecessary waste. I do save a few bob as well!
Interestingly, my wife and I was out and re-use jars. We bottle our own fruit in them. Industry used to re-use complete bottles and jars, but now crush and re-make. It would be interesting to see which method is the most efficient.
To me re-use is simply a way of life probably instilled from a childhood where we re-used everything. I don't do it with a misguided hope of saving the planet, to me it is just common sense, but then as I mentioned before, common sense aint that common any more! _________________ Dane- roverdriver but not a Viking. |
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Greeney in France
Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 1173 Location: Limousin area of France
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Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Said with eloquent loquaciousness
Dont get me started on "common sense" _________________ www.OldFrenchCars.com
We do these things not to escape life but to prevent life escaping us |
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