Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
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Kuleke
Joined: 18 Oct 2012 Posts: 5
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:14 pm Post subject: Mounting and testing a 1940s XPAG engine |
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Hello,
I'm a final year University student and my project is on adapting a classic MG sports car to work with modern fuels. We have been supplied with an XPAG engine and the current task is mounting it on one of the test rigs available. After mounting, we will be thinking of ways to start it. But more importantly, due to health and safety, we will need to be able to start it remotely i.e. from a control room outside where the test rigs are. Any general pointers would be appreciated. I will post more questions and information as the project develops over the coming months.
Thank you very much. |
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roverdriver
Joined: 18 Oct 2008 Posts: 1210 Location: 100 miles from Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:05 am Post subject: |
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The engine will run on 'modern' fuels without any problem anyway, however if you must persist, remote stating is pretty obvious.
I would have thought that a final year student would realise that 'remote' starting is what happens when the engine is in the car. A simple extension of wiring from the starter solenoid to your remote location is all that you would need.
You might feel that some linkages to throttle and choke (if not automatic) could be considered as well. _________________ Dane- roverdriver but not a Viking. |
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Rick Site Admin
Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 22449 Location: UK
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Kuleke
Joined: 18 Oct 2012 Posts: 5
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:31 am Post subject: |
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roverdriver wrote: | The engine will run on 'modern' fuels without any problem anyway, however if you must persist, remote stating is pretty obvious.
I would have thought that a final year student would realise that 'remote' starting is what happens when the engine is in the car. A simple extension of wiring from the starter solenoid to your remote location is all that you would need.
You might feel that some linkages to throttle and choke (if not automatic) could be considered as well. |
I don't think we'd be getting so much funding to do this if the engine was able to run on modern fuels as well as you say.
In any case, I know what it means to start remotely, but you see the entire starting mechanism is missing, that's why I'm here to ask about it. If its the same as a modern car, I can handle that. But if there are any key differences I should know about, I was hoping someone here might help with that.
Thanks |
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Kuleke
Joined: 18 Oct 2012 Posts: 5
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Rick wrote: | Is this to test the effects of Ethanol on an engine and its ancillaries, ahead of when E10-rated fuel comes in next year?
RJ |
We will be testing the effects of ethanol as part of the project. Since the research has already been done, we're gonna focus our efforts more on coming up with a way to avoid the adverse effects of having the ethanol.
Thanks |
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Peter_L
Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 2680 Location: New Brunswick. Canada.
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Is there a starter motor ?
You will need a starter solenoid. A battery. A cable from the battery to the "remote bomb proof bunker" then via a switch and back to the coil.
Two lengths of rope, and an assortment of pulleys so you can operate the choke and the throttle from the bunker.
However, how you remotely adjust the carb, so as to get the thing to run properly is beyond me. Then there are trivial things such as getting rid of the exhaust fumes, keeping a stationary engine cool enough and warm enough to mimic real driving and also changing the load applied to the engine, as that will 100% affect your readings.
Oh nearly forgot, you may need a remote tacho, air temp gauge, water temp gauge, exhaust gas monitor and torque measuring device as the varying data from these will be needed to be computed into your findings.
I am sure there are things I have forgot, but our legion of members are sure to fill in the gaps. |
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ukdave2002
Joined: 23 Nov 2007 Posts: 4105 Location: South Cheshire
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
You want to look for a Lucas M35G-1 starter motor, this will fit the XPAG engine, they were fitted to many other engines so quite common and can be picked up second hand for a few quid.
Dave |
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Salopian
Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 354 Location: Newport Shropshire
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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I have to say the XPAG in my MG TD runs fine on modern fuel - in fact has run fine on all the fuels I've put in it since acquired in 1972. Had no unleaded or ethanol problems yet but will cross that bridge when I come to it. Covered a great number of miles as well.
Same applies to the Alvis - have I just been lucky?. _________________ Jonathan Butler
Alvis SD 12/50 1928 MG TD 1950 |
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Kuleke
Joined: 18 Oct 2012 Posts: 5
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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ukdave2002 wrote: | Hi
You want to look for a Lucas M35G-1 starter motor, this will fit the XPAG engine, they were fitted to many other engines so quite common and can be picked up second hand for a few quid.
Dave |
Thanks a lot for this, it will be very useful for the budget. |
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Kuleke
Joined: 18 Oct 2012 Posts: 5
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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peterwpg wrote: | Is there a starter motor ?
You will need a starter solenoid. A battery. A cable from the battery to the "remote bomb proof bunker" then via a switch and back to the coil.
Two lengths of rope, and an assortment of pulleys so you can operate the choke and the throttle from the bunker.
However, how you remotely adjust the carb, so as to get the thing to run properly is beyond me. Then there are trivial things such as getting rid of the exhaust fumes, keeping a stationary engine cool enough and warm enough to mimic real driving and also changing the load applied to the engine, as that will 100% affect your readings.
Oh nearly forgot, you may need a remote tacho, air temp gauge, water temp gauge, exhaust gas monitor and torque measuring device as the varying data from these will be needed to be computed into your findings.
I am sure there are things I have forgot, but our legion of members are sure to fill in the gaps. |
Thanks for responding. Someone on this forum has suggested a particular starter motor (Lucas M35G-1) which we will be looking into. The gauges, exhaust gas monitor and torque measuring devices are already available on the rig we will be using so it should just be a matter of connecting the engine up to it, hopefully our team of technicians can handle that.
The temperature issue is quite a big one, we're not entirely sure how to go about that at the moment, someone has suggested building something similar to a bonnet around the engine but I'm not sure how we'd go about simulating the same air flow situations. We could work backwards by comparing our measured temperature data with that of one working inside a car...
Remotely operating the carb, I had not previously thought about, but I will raise that at the next meeting so we can discuss it. The 'bunker' has quite an elaborate set of controls for the rig, its normally used for undergrad thermodynamics labs where they measure exhaust gases for combustion analysis. Altering the throttle and the choke from inside the bunker might have a system which we can hopefully hook up to the engine itself to avoid having to alter them ourselves (human error, parallax error, etc)
Thanks very much again for taking time to respond. |
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Peter_L
Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 2680 Location: New Brunswick. Canada.
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Kuleke. As I am sure you will have noticed by now, this forum is never short of opinions, ideas and suggestions.
Photos of the engine/rig would be of interest. |
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exbmc
Joined: 18 Jun 2009 Posts: 236 Location: Derby East Midlands
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject: test bed |
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You shouldn't need to bother with a dummy bonnet. If the set-up is a proper test cell, with either inlet or extract fans and vents, there will be ample air movement around the engine. The coolant temperature may be controlled by running the standard radiator, and varying the position of a cooling fan until acceptable control is established. Ideally, the coolant will be directed to a heat exchanger, which is fed process water at a regulated rate to maintain 85--90 degrees. The oil temperature will probably be ok, but an external cooler can be fitted if it rises too much. It all depends of course, how severe the test cycle is that you use. You should have a throttle motor to set the carb for where you need it. You may find, an engine indoors will not require a choke to fire up. If it does, you could just use a length of wire and pull it manually, while standing at the rear of the rig. Hardly worth mechanizing something you will need only briefly.
If health and safety is a major issue, you only enter the cell with the engine at idle, to make adjustments, then ramp it up again when you are outside. |
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MVPeters
Joined: 28 Aug 2008 Posts: 822 Location: Northern MA, USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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I'd put a TD on a rolling road. _________________ Mike - MVPeters at comcast.net
2002 MINI Cooper 'S' |
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Jim.Walker
Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 1229 Location: Chesterfield
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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I am rather puzzled why/how tests on a 70 years old engine will produce results significant to the present day?
I am sure the engine would be better preserved for classical use or posterity.
Jim. _________________ Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then!
Last edited by Jim.Walker on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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P3steve
Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 542 Location: Great Yarmouth, Norfolk
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Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:02 am Post subject: |
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I have been reading with interest the replies to this and it makes me think back to my time at Tech collage doing my city and guilds in motor vehicles. We had a fully equipped workshop there but also an engine test area with half a dozen engines in test rigs and even a Triumph herald rolling chassis which was drivable and I seem to recall in mint condition, there was petrol and diesel engines in all shapes and sizes but the prize for me was a Daimler V8 4 ½ lt from a Majestic Major I believe all. These engines as I said were on test beds with remote starting panels with all the switch gear and gauges. The point is I cant understand why an establishment like a university hasn’t got at least some basic facilities or some one in the know.
By the way it was North Notts collage of FE in Mansfield _________________ If the world didn't suck we'd all fall off |
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