Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[MikeG]

I am carrying out a "nut and bolt"restoration of my 1936 Triumph Gloria.
To remove the problem of corroded fixings, I thought to use Stainless Nuts Bolts and Coach Bolts through the replacment Ash Frame, to fit Wings ect.
I have been advised that Stainless Bolts can have a problem in wood.I am useing Ash for the main frame repairs and Oak for the Sills.
Has anyone had experiance of useing Stainless Fixings? Or, What is the best method of fixing steel Wings to Wood Frames.
Thanks
Mike

[Old Wrench]

Mike:

Whatever metal fastenings you use will experience Bi-Metal Corrosion, mainly because of Electrolytic Reaction, as the fixing bolts not only must transit the wood frames but also be in contact with the mild steel chassis and, as you say, external mild steel body components.

This pdf should assist, I believe.

http://www.tda.org.uk/files/9213/6541/5614/TB08_Metal_Fixings.pdf
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Well, apart from that, did you enjoy the play, Mrs Lincoln?

[Roger-hatchy]

A few years ago I had a chart of compatibility of metals with regard to
electrolysis.

It showed the least corrosive and the greatest corrosive compatibly.
I got it from a Model Boat magazine.

Been trying to find it again but with no luck.

Would be handy for many an application for restorers.

[Bitumen Boy]

I've not heard of any general problems with stainless fixings in timber, and don't think the fixings into or through the ash are likely to give you many problems here in the real world. The oak sills could be a different matter - it is commonly accepted that the tannin will corrode steel fasteners, but how plating affects that process and whether stainless steel would be resistant is something else. If using bolts right through the oak, the accepted practice was once to char the inside of the hole with a hot steel bar before assembly, but to get suitably sized bar hot enough over enough of its length is probably going to require access to a forge.

Old Wrench, thanks for linking to that interesting PDF on a subject many workers don't give enough thought to. Our back gate was a good example, a simple ledged and braced thing constructed by someone from old floorboards and old style plain steel screws. It was sound when we moved in, and was creosoted regularly, but after a few years started to give trouble nonetheless. On closer examination I found that while the timber was sound, the screws had rusted away to practically nothing and it was slowly falling to pieces. I repaired it with coach bolts and penny washers to draw it all together, maybe if those rust away in similar fashion I can knock the remnants out to replace them. The timber is still sound and I reckon it should be good for a few years yet...

[Old Wrench]

I am a great fan of galvanised Coach Bolts, BB!

Very useful and much forgotten items.

Trouble today is far too many people working in building trades and fencing, have grown up with the ease and speed of cordless drills and Posidrive type mild steel screws. Most of which are sourced from abroad.

Chatting to the MD of a local precision engineering shop a few months ago (a very clever man and, unusually, a groaning order book, thanks to advanced use of hybrid solid state electronics, hydraulics and air actuators: they manufacture low volume and one-off automation machines) he told me the "Steel" he buys mainly comes from Eastern Europe, now and whilst a bar may well be sold as, say EN50C, and part of it might well be, much of it isn't!

With your gate, the true old craftsman would have probably used brass woodscrews. Now far too expensive.

Oh for the days of Guest Keen and Neetlefold!
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Well, apart from that, did you enjoy the play, Mrs Lincoln?

[Ray White]

hello Mike. I have had quite a bit of experience with coach built bodies and have to say that I have not heard of any problems with using stainless steel fittings in wood. If you are using stainless steel (or brass) cross head screws, however, remember that they do not have the strength of mild steel ones and it is quite easy to over tighten them and break the heads off. You shouldn't have a problem with stainless coach bolts etc. but personally, I would use galvanised steel. You are not planning to take it apart again and steel screws will last for many years. Tip: smear a little grease on the screws and ensure you have a good pilot hole.

[colwyn500]

When I rebuilt some of the ash framing on my Austin over 20 years ago I re-used some of the original screws on hinges and the like. I used to find it difficult to match the original head sizes and the generally fairly chunky shanks on them. Where I had no choice but to replace I found brass screws were often closer in dimensions to the originals. Bearing in mind that once restored, a car is sure to have less exposure to continuous damp, I don't think that electrolytic activity is going to be a huge problem.
At the time I had to use aluminium rivet nuts to replace corroded captive nuts connecting the wings to the lower scuttle because I couldn't source an alternative. I did worry about that but I think my joints will corrode before the ones on the car do.

[Phil - Nottingham]

Cannot comment on wood usage but apart from bi-met corrosion which with ally is worse than mild steel fixings the tensile strength is nowhere near OE fixings but worse; corrosion pockets develop inside bolts which weaken them sufficiently for them to shear even under vibration eventually

I would never use them, even marine grade, in safety critical areas but I suppose wood framing will be OK but not sure so would brass or even cast/wrought iron the favoured fixings of old still going strong in some cases be better?
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[Bitumen Boy]

[badhuis]

"I don't have a cordless drill myself as I've found on several occasions in the past that these sort of rechargeable batteries soon die unless used more or less constantly - unless you're in the trade and using the things daily you might as well chuck money down a drain."

True but the cordless drill is just oh so useful.
The battery on my 12 year old B&D drill finally gave up. I was thinking of buying a new cordless drill but did not want spend much, but also I hate buying cheap stuff. So I searched for just a new battery and found two. One NiCad and one NiMm. The first one is the old design battery which will keep its charge longer but needs to be fully drained in order to keep tip top before charging again. The second needs more frequent charging but will charge faster and will have a longer lifetime. Well if it makes another 12 years I reckon it will outlast the drill machine itself (which is still a good 18v machine).
New battery delivered next day for €60. Instead of €200 for a new cordless. I am happy.
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a car stops being fun when it becomes an investment

[Old Wrench]

[ukdave2002]

You all must have the wrong make of cordless drill, the battery pack never falls out of mine.......



Dave

[kevin2306]

Having done a lot of work with hardwoods (I am a time served cabinetmaker), brass is the way to go, expensive yes but still the best where hardwoods are concerned.
Slotted heads are fine with a decent screwdriver, proper pilot hole and traditional hard soap as a lubricant.

Kev

[Ray White]

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/12/hand-powered-drilling-tools-and-machines.html

I have a selection of breast drilling machines from the 1920's. Eg. the first one on this page. 2 speed.

[colwyn500]

I used to get very snotty about cordless tools but now prefer them where possible to corded. Get 18 volt Lithium-Ion versions (I swear by Bosch).
I now have 5 identical batteries, three of them are four years old. they seem to get better with age (like me )and nowadays you can save money by buying bare tools, without the battery.
Back to the subject (vaguely) though; I would never use them anywhere in assembling a car.