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Super Minx clutch losing pressure
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Post new topic   Reply to topic    Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration. Forum Index -> Rootes Group & Original Companies (Hillman, Humber, Singer, Sunbeam, Commer etc)
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bitumen Boy wrote:
MVPeters wrote:


re the thrust washers: that should not be an expensive diagnosis or fix either. Are the washers relatively easy to get?


Even if not, they're hardly impossible to make from scratch.

Just wondering how you make thrust washers and if you would consider making me some at about .022 each to take up my play, I am willing to pay of course but cannot seem to get an answer from anyone selling thrust washers to say if they do them bigger
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1452
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trish et al,

I’m not familiar with Rootes engines but I would have thought one pair of the bearings should have a locating tab (a piece the sticks up from the top of the bearing arc. With these bearings as shown what is to stop them spinning? Could this be the problem IE the wrong thrust bearings fitted. The advice on the damage still stands though.

Peter Scott is the man with Rootes experience.

Art
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V8 Nutter



Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 491

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art. From memory (which is not what it used to be) the 1725 only had thrusts in the block. The cap stopped them spinning so there was no need for the tag you mentioned. That recess in the cap is where the crank has rubbed it away. I think the only oversize they did was .005 each side 010 overall, but they wouldn't do any good because there would be nothing to stop them spinning.
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

V8 Nutter wrote:
Art. From memory (which is not what it used to be) the 1725 only had thrusts in the block. The cap stopped them spinning so there was no need for the tag you mentioned. That recess in the cap is where the crank has rubbed it away. I think the only oversize they did was .005 each side 010 overall, but they wouldn't do any good because there would be nothing to stop them spinning.

I watched a youtube video on thrust washers and it said it didn't matter if it spun round as still taking up the end play, I know they are correct washers as have bought some .005 and .010 last year but need .022 to take up end play to test to see if it cures all problems before spending more money on her, even if they fell out after 1 trip it would be worth it to know to spend money on someone taking engine out to change crank or whatever, a previous comment said they easy to make so have asked him if he would make me some and hoping for a reply soon, I don't suppose I could stick 2 in 1 side just for testing
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1452
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trish,

IMHO sticking two together is out of the question. The +5 If there are no locating tabs then it’s like no engine I have ever seen. The tab is there to stop the bearing spinning. On one the crankshaft side of the bearing is a soft coating, lead indium from memory. On the other side is the steel backing which if it spins will cause the wear that you see on your block and centre main cap. Unfortunately the tag slot (if it has one) is blocked from view by the crank. The only engines I have ever seen that didn’t have a tag had the main bearing and thrust washers as one unit with a locator tang on the bearing to stop the shell spinning.

Art
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

47Jag wrote:
Trish,

IMHO sticking two together is out of the question. The +5 If there are no locating tabs then it’s like no engine I have ever seen. The tab is there to stop the bearing spinning. On one the crankshaft side of the bearing is a soft coating, lead indium from memory. On the other side is the steel backing which if it spins will cause the wear that you see on your block and centre main cap. Unfortunately the tag slot (if it has one) is blocked from view by the crank. The only engines I have ever seen that didn’t have a tag had the main bearing and thrust washers as one unit with a locator tang on the bearing to stop the shell spinning.

Art

if you look on ebay the thrust washers for rootes engines do not have any tags they are just semi circle, they don't actually do +5 cos that is what I thought I was buying +5 and +10 and no-one would answer what a standard was but they are just measurements of .005 and 010 cos if say standard was .005 and I got +10 it would have got me a lot nearer to where I need to be but I don't think those selling them know what they are selling cos the ones I bought saying .005 measure .097 and the ones I bought saying .10 measure .10 so not even 5 between them and that is the whole measurment not just the coating cos my micrometre wont measure in the oil gap as too see the size of the coating
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1452
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trish,

Yes it is the ‘coating’ that represents the +5 etc..

On the subject of tabs, thinking about it, the tab locator would be on the bearing cap so that the block bearings could be replaced by ‘rolling ‘ them into position. There are no sign of a tab cut-out on your caps so as you say the ‘tagless’ replacement ones you have seen are correct.

The standard bearing would be marked STD and anything thicker would be in relation to that, so +5 is 5 thousands of an inch thicker. The bearings are usually supplied in 5 thou. increments. In normal machining practice the crankshaft would be machined to remove the scores in 5 thou increments and then the oversize bearing to match these dimensions would be fitted.

As it stands I note you don’t want to get involved in stripping/machining so how about this, put the two best bearings in each side of the bearing cap, refit and push the crank forward to take up the play (get your assistant to push on the clutch pedal) measure the gap, we’ll say it measures 63 thou. That will give you an Idea of what oversize you need, divide that in half and you need +30 bearing. Not a great solution but it might get the problem closer to fixed.

Art
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

47Jag wrote:
Trish,

Yes it is the ‘coating’ that represents the +5 etc..

On the subject of tabs, thinking about it, the tab locator would be on the bearing cap so that the block bearings could be replaced by ‘rolling ‘ them into position. There are no sign of a tab cut-out on your caps so as you say the ‘tagless’ replacement ones you have seen are correct.

The standard bearing would be marked STD and anything thicker would be in relation to that, so +5 is 5 thousands of an inch thicker. The bearings are usually supplied in 5 thou. increments. In normal machining practice the crankshaft would be machined to remove the scores in 5 thou increments and then the oversize bearing to match these dimensions would be fitted.

As it stands I note you don’t want to get involved in stripping/machining so how about this, put the two best bearings in each side of the bearing cap, refit and push the crank forward to take up the play (get your assistant to push on the clutch pedal) measure the gap, we’ll say it measures 63 thou. That will give you an Idea of what oversize you need, divide that in half and you need +30 bearing. Not a great solution but it might get the problem closer to fixed.

Art

the weather is too bad today as the drive is flooded as usual, it will take a couple of days to soak away but already planning on putting in the 10's and remeasure, as long as they don't fall straight out we should be able to measure gap and if within a few thou then try starting engine to see if we get clutch pressure, I am assuming thet the way the pevious owner was driving it on the test drive, putting the overdrive on and off continuously is probably how he knackered the clutch after he had had the engine done so they changed the clutch and did not check to see that the thrust washers had fallen out so of course he would think still a major problem so sold it on telling us the only thing not changed was the slave, which of course we changed straight away then thought it was letting air in so bled it so many times and then changed the pipework, checked master no problems there
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1452
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trish,

Yes the weather isn’t conducive to working. Even in my garage where I’m in the process of replacing the rear brake pipes on my wife’s Mini (MOT fail) it’s hard going, trying to keep the old fingers from seizing up.

Art
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V8 Nutter



Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 491

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tricia. The U. Tube video you watched is wrong. If the thrusts are allowed to spin in their housing, because there is no bearing material on the back of the thrusts they will soon tear the housing and the thrusts to pieces. If you want to be technical google dissimilar materials. As Art as has said the thrusts must be stopped from moving, either by the bearing cap as in your engine or the tag that is more commonly used. I did see a repair once where some one had made a thrust from a piece of bronze, because proper ones thick enough to take up the float were not available. Drilled and tapped the block then drilled the home made thrust to suit and held it in place with counter sunk screws, counter sunk below the surface of the thrust.
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Bitumen Boy



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1298
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

V8 Nutter wrote:
Tricia. The U. Tube video you watched is wrong. If the thrusts are allowed to spin in their housing, because there is no bearing material on the back of the thrusts they will soon tear the housing and the thrusts to pieces. If you want to be technical google dissimilar materials. As Art as has said the thrusts must be stopped from moving, either by the bearing cap as in your engine or the tag that is more commonly used. I did see a repair once where some one had made a thrust from a piece of bronze, because proper ones thick enough to take up the float were not available. Drilled and tapped the block then drilled the home made thrust to suit and held it in place with counter sunk screws, counter sunk below the surface of the thrust.


+1. There's a chap somewhere in the US (I think) making custom thrust washers for Triumph engines to just this pattern. I've no reason to think the same approach wouldn't work on a Rootes engine, the basic technology is the same.

I think I've also heard of people fitting thrust washers intended for A series engines - primarily sold for performance Minis, possibly - to Triumph engines in much the same way, so it's possible there may be something else on the market that would suit this application.
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V8 Nutter



Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 491

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We used to use Mini thrusts on Triumph engines but the method we used did involve quite a lot of machining. I seem to remember we used Ford thrusts in Rootes engines, because the crank was a bit bigger than a Triumph. I think we also used Ford thrusts on the Triumph 2000/2500 although they didn't fail as often as the small ones
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:43 pm    Post subject: measuring end float Reply with quote

we have finally had good enough weather to sort out the thrust washers, the only problem now is conflicting methods of measuring the gap, youtube video of triumph says push crank in 1 direction measure gap then pull it in other direction and measure the gap, minus one from the other and that is your gap, well that was the first thing we read so did that and assumed we needed about 20 thou thicker washers then read an article on rootes engine strip down and it said push or pull in 1 direction measure between washer and web ( whatever that is) anyway measured between washer and crank and lo and behold we didn't need half as much so we made our own washer and put it in and then had to put one of the ones from the sump cos my .005 was too fat to fit in the other side but now bearing cap is back on it seems a bit of movement again so want to know other opinions of measuring before starting over again, please only reply if you have done them on a rootes engine not other classics, also the manual for the mk3 and mk4 have differing ranges for what it should be yet I thought all the bottom ends were the same in the 1725 so why a differnt gap between 1 year and another, any help greatly appreciated
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V8 Nutter



Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 491

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's simple fit the thrusts you have, then lever the crank as far forward as possible check the gap between the thrust washers and the crank that is your end float, if it's more than about .005 you need to do something about it. I can't remember what the book said end float should be, but I'm guessing about .002 to .006 should be about right
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:34 pm    Post subject: is this the end Reply with quote

well tested today worked fine for a few mins then a noise and it means one of the thrust washers has fallen back out and so obviously means the crank needs replacing if only we had a garage but we haven't so am thinking now do I wait till I can move somewhere with a garage or give up and sell, the clutch is still working so obviously only 1 of the washers fell out this time so far but will not try starting it again till I decide what I am going to do as don't want to risk major damage, such a shame but I will think over the next few days what to do
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