Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[Rick]

Morning all,

Do some older cars better suit an auto box over a manual equivalent? A neighbour of ours in the 1980s would often be visited by a cousin who drove an automatic Austin 1100. My overriding memory of that car is its soundtrack as it headed off up the road, changing up the gears swiftly into top gear before any real speed had been achieved.

Dad had a 1300 VdP auto until 2 or 3 years ago and the memories came flooding back when I drove it. While I was prepared not to really like an old-school auto box attached to a relatively small engine, it kind of suited the car. I'd have liked to try a manual version but it never happened.

RJ
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[MikeEdwards]

I think some cars suit it more than others. A mate used to have an Opel Monza GSE, which I always thought suited the auto box that his had, as it was more of a motorway cruiser / tourer. Similarly, I spent some time looking at Porsche 928s, and felt that an auto would be the best option, but when I was looking at the 944, I wouldn't consider it.

[kevin2306]

I love the BW box on my Singer and I think it does really suit it.

Kev

[Ellis]

The second automatic car I drove was a 1972 Vanden Plas 1300 which I was given to use when my own Ford Escort Mark 2 was in it's supplying dealer for warranty work in 1977. The first was a Daf 55.

The four speed automatic was a novelty to use and quite fun for a few days using the gearbox as a clutchless manual. I thought it suited the car's character well.
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Starting Handle Expert

1964 Jaguar Mark 2 3.4 litre
1962 Land Rover Series 2a 88"
2002 BMW M3 E46 Cabriolet

[Richard H]

My Vauxhall Royale is an automatic, and being a lazy, powerful barge it is very well suited. Manual was actually an option that had to be ticked when the car was new, hence 90% of them were autos.

Most cars I've had have been manuals though, if you like fifties British cars and aren't able to drive a manual car, you're a bit stuffed as there weren't many autos sold and even fewer survivors.
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Richard Hughes

[Ashley]

I liked my Rover P6 3500 and a Daimler 250 but my Shadow 2 always felt gutless and did 8-11mpg.

My Merc has a seven speeder which is amazing, the car flies up hill or wherever.

[Phil - Nottingham]

I like autos - our 1964 Rover 3 Litre Coupe P5 has the extra cost option of the BW DG 3 speed box. This has second speed start with electric operated hold and 1st speed start if needed for rapid exit from junctions but otherwise it dead smooth and quite fast enough starting in 2nd, Top gear has torque converter lockup anyway so there is no power or speed loss over the standard manual and overdrive. There is also the usual kickdown. We get 16-22 mpg

Our 1972 3.5 Litre P5B V8 has the common BW35 3 speed auto which is about at its limit and hard driving has less smooth changes but its still good. MPG is 18-24 mpg even though some slip occurs in top as there is no direct drive lockup as with the P5 auto. There was no manual option.

In the past we have had a Mini and a Metro with the AP 4 speed auto. This is not so smooth and the changes were jerkier and the acceleration not as good as the manual version
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Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2

[Clactonguy]

having driven my Morris 1100 and aware owner whom had auto. general consensus at time was that. autos needed larger engines. mind you the 1100 wasn't exactly a sports car.
driven transit auto and manual . rover p6 auto ( current car) and various other autos and manuals since. 1968 when I drove first car after passing tests ( in an austin100 ) then own Morris 1100. firms Morris 1000 pickup. transit auto. capri auto ( mine) zephyr mk 4 manual etc
I am at conclusion some vehicles. do seem suited to auto but essentially its down to two you drive the vehicle.
a gentlemans quiet cruising car such as Bentley ought to be auto. an guys sports car such as Ferrari ( or MGB) ought to be manual.
its about your frame of mind .what type of driving. you do with your vehicle. current car is Kuga .now I wouldn't mind that being an auto! it has long legs ( cruises well)

[peter scott]

Autoboxes can be quite clever but for a manual driver they can be quite annoying for the simple reason that they have yet to achieve anticipation of road conditions.

Until that happens they will always be second best.

Peter
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http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon

[Ashley]

[47Jag]

Ashley,

I’ll ‘see’ your seven speed and raise you an eight

Most modern automatics have paddle override and I use mine all the time. I find that left to it’s own devices the box will be in a lower ratio than I would deem/prefer for economy, especially when joining the motorway, sometimes by as much as two gears too low even at motorway speed limits. The rev. counter will be at 3000 and the box is in 6th. I suppose it will eventually upshift but I give it a couple of right paddle prods and man and machine is once again in perfect harmony . It’s the same for downshifting. I hate kick-down unless absolutely necessary so when required, left paddle once or twice and off we toddle past whatever, the best of both worlds IMHO.

ART

[47Jag]

Ashley,

I’ll ‘see’ your seven speed and raise you an eight

Most modern automatics have paddle override and I use mine all the time. I find that left to it’s own devices the box will be in a lower ratio than I would deem/prefer for economy, especially when joining the motorway, sometimes by as much as two gears too low even at motorway speed limits. The rev. counter will be at 3000 and the box is in 6th. I suppose it will eventually upshift but I give it a couple of prods and man and machine is once again in perfect harmony . It’s the same for downshifting. I hate kick-down unless absolutely necessary so when required, left paddle once or twice and off we toddle past whatever, the best of both worlds IMHO.

ART

[Riley Blue]

Interesting insights about the advantages (and disadvantages) of auto boxes. I bought an Audi A8 with six-speed Tiptronic transmission a few years ago and leave it in 'auto' just about all the time - though I've occasionally nudged it into 'sport' mode and dropped the suspension when I'm on a decent driving road but the car's really too large to indulge in such boy racer naughtiness.

I don't recall it ever being in the wrong gear and I've hardly ever dropped out of 'auto' and changed manually; I must try it on a long trip sometime (I've one in a couple of weeks) but I can happily drive it for 500 miles and never find it lacking.

Bizarrely, some A8s had their kick down switch disabled (it's a quick 'twist' to enable it) so drivers weren't able to enjoy the blistering acceleration it provides. Mine's most definitely 'on'
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David

1963 Riley 1.5
1965 Riley 1.5

[alastairq]

I've had a little experience of automatic boxes....the odd car [and they were odd]....mostly buses of old...and in a later career, various rather heavy green vehicles.

Automatic boxes aren't just 'automatic' boxes.

With technology, comes a variety of different designs of gearbox, which can 'change gear themselves'.
They all have a different characteristics of operation...but, to a normal driver, an auto is an auto?

In my view, an 'automatic ' gearbox is one equipped with a torque converter, and epicyclic gears.

Anything else is an 'automated' gearbox.

A simple example of an automated gearbox can be found in lorries today [a very common gearbox, more so than a manual].....and MAN call it 'automated' in their literature. I suspect, developed to take out the one real cause of wear & tear of a manual gearbox.....the driver!
Consistent method of operation [changing gear], as against inconsistent operation [foot and hand].

I used to describe the 'differences' to my customers/students/victims, by simply describing the difference in characteristics, as they appear to the driver [they had to train on both auto and automated boxes, very different].
With an automatic gearbox [in a lorry, usually quite large]....one maneuvered the lorry by using the brake pedal...easy really...ease off the brake to move, back on it to stop....the very best pedal to be sitting on, in a very confined space? Once in gear, easing the brake off, meant the idling engine would start to move the vehicle.

With automated gearboxes [now vastly more commonplace] in a lorry-thing..one maneuvered the vehicle by using the gas pedal [loud pedal, accelerator, to be posh].....in other words, entirely the wrong pedal to be using when maneuvering in a confined space. Life became full of lurches...will the next lurch be one-too-many lurches?

Now, I know with cars, tight maneuvering really isn't a commonplace pastime...but the principles were the same.


Automatic cars of the past, needing more power, or being slower/less economical than their manual brethren, was , to me, down to the actual number of gears within the gearbox.
For many years [40's/50's] in the US of A, autos had but 2 gears [speeds]..bottom, and top. Hence they needed a reasonably torquey , big motor to make use of them.

I think Borg Warner were a common UK make of auto box?
I think, for many years they only had 3 gears?

As a family, we once had a very nice SAAB 900 2 litre, which had a 3 speed auto gearbox. Alongside it, I had acquired a SAAB 900 turbo, of a similar age, and model type. [85/86 or 87,IIRC?} which was a 5 speed manual.
The differences were notable...the auto had a much lower final drive..since, only having 3 gears, flexibility of performance had to be recovered [as against the 5 gears of the turbo...forget the turbo bit for comparison]....thus...at 70 mph, the auto was revving a lot higher than the equivalent manual....thus, fuel consumption was affected.

As we got into [or towards] the current century, more gears were added, engines didn't need to be so flexible, so the differences in performance became less noticeable, between auto & manual?

One point I'd make.....[speaking as a 'drive' who did it all for a living]...I had no issues with exercising control [will??] over an auto....it's just that, as a driver, one had to approach gear selection from a different angle to a manual box.
An automatic box was always mch quicker off the mark than a manual box...[and is much much quicker off the mark, compared to an automated gearbox!].....so for the traffic light grand prix, an auto will always win out.
One of my current vehicles is a '67 Mustang..which has a 6 cylinder engine 200 cu in] and a 3 speed Ford Auto box.
I find it very pleasant to drive...being capable of keeping ahead of modern traffic, without the fuel consumption of the old V8's..and is an absolute joy when entering a roundabout....as the torque of the engine, and the immediacy of operation of the go pedal means launch is instant...[whereas the manual gearbox driver is still trying to find their clutch bite?}

Great fun for a pensioner hooligan??

[Ashley]