classic car forum header
Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
How To Register     Posting Photographs     Privacy Policy     F/book facebook.com/oldclassiccar

Hydrogen, batteries and *The Future*
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration. Forum Index -> Classic & Vintage Cars - General Chat
Author Message
FCElan



Joined: 29 May 2019
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 3:45 pm    Post subject: Hydrogen, batteries and *The Future* Reply with quote

Dear All, I'm researching the potential market for converting a classic car to run on a Hydrogen Fuel Cell, and would love to hear your opinions on such a car.

With the future of the internal combustion engine (in new production cars) looking to end within the next couple of decades, it seems there may be a push towards converting classic cars to more sustainable forms of fuel.

Both Battery electric vehicles and Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles have made leaps and bounds over the last decade, with the more widespread adoption of Battery Electric Vehicles beginning in the past couple of years.

What are your thoughts on the electrification of classic cars? Do you think it should be done at all? What type of classics should/could be electrified?

I've also created a quick survey of multiple choice questions to get some (anonymised) quantitive data, if you have the time to fill these out I'd be very grateful!

https://forms.gle/esZEU2WVmm8x737i6
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1105
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a danger that old cars will become no better than interactive displays in an outdoor museum.

The technology of the day is what gave old vehicles, what some of us now see as, 'character'..

The wider public, being nothing more than casual spectators, won't [don't want to?] understand this.

Recent issues in this regard have arisen because of the restrictions that have come into force in large city areas...[London, for example?]....There is a danger that limitations of power source, or usage, designed to control the situation within areas like London, actually have a severe impact on those of us enthusiasts who choose not to live anywhere near these great conurbations...with their associated environmental issues.
I also do not want to see the types of restriction placed on old car usage, seen recently in places like the Netherlands....

It would be akin to demanding that all daily bicycle riders be compelled to wear lurid lycra.....

We really are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Ford Mustang coupe, 1967, 6 cylinder auto.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rick
Site Admin


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 20269
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum, interesting question. I completed the survey, although some of the questions seem to assume experience of using hydrogen for a road car (which I don't have).

Electrifying an old car doesn't much interest me, and given the low mileages that most classics are put to, seems like a bit of a non-starter so long as fuel is available for a reasonable cost still. If an alternative fuel that utilises the existing IC engine in an old car can be found, then I could live with that (probably).

RJ
_________________
Rick (OCC Admin)
Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
badhuis



Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1040
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alastairq wrote:
I also do not want to see the types of restriction placed on old car usage, seen recently in places like the Netherlands....

For real classics (40 years plus) there is not a problem, you are allowed everywhere. It is different for cars aged 15-40 years.

As for electric classic cars, I do not see the point. I guess one would convert a classic only if the goal is to use it much, but classic cars are not everyday material for most owners. The disadvantages of running a classic often or in place of a modern are too many and most users get back to modern cars which of course are much safer, user friendly, faster, better brakes / air conditioning / heating, etc etc.
As always there are a few forerunners but not many, and surely not when the conversion is as expensive as it is now.
_________________
a car stops being fun when it becomes an investment
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 249

PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for electric classic cars, I do not see the point. [/quote]

Isn't the point that in 10 or 20 years time hardly anyone will be buying an old car that hasn't been converted to run on electric or something else because they won't be able to use it. So most will be scrapped. Presumably the price/value of you old car will plunge dramatically a few years before this happens when buyers realize they don't want to pay very much for a toy that they won't be able to use for very long before the cost of petrol becomes prohibitive or its use for private vehicles is banned.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bitumen Boy



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1329
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire

PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstly, I can't see petrol disappearing altogether any time soon. Even if it isn't commonly used on the road, it's too useful as a fuel for running the larger power tools where the weight of a small engine and the speed of refuelling is, I suspect, always going to be a better option than batteries, plus the benefit that petrol engined tools can reasonably safely be used on wet days - hardly uncommon in the UK - where health and safety is going to prohibit the use of electrical kit. One of the biggest users of such tools are, either directly or indirectly through contractors, local councils who don't seem to be in any hurry to replace their small petrol engines - again, I doubt there's any realistic alternative for all day use.

Secondly, if we're talking about hydrogen, surely it would be possible to burn it in an adapted petrol engine in much the same way that LPG can be used? Assuming it becomes common - and I for one think it will in time - the bulk of it will likely be used by fuel cell/electric vehicles, but there's no practical reason it can't be used in other ways.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 5998
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the only way to go. Batteries are a bad way with no obvious prospect of seriously replacing petrol and diesel..

With hydrogen available at pumps we might even have the possibility of running our old cars in similar fashion to LPG.

Peter
_________________
http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 litre saloon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
lowdrag



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 1174
Location: Le Mans

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honda were running a hydrogen-powered Accord about 15 years back in California, and here at Le Mans we are running buses on it with a filling station at the aerodrome. And we have a hydrogen car racing in the 24 hours in two weeks time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 249

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter scott wrote:
That's the only way to go. Batteries are a bad way with no obvious prospect of seriously replacing petrol and diesel..

With hydrogen available at pumps we might even have the possibility of running our old cars in similar fashion to LPG.

Peter

So, how many governments around the world are planning a hydrogen filling infrastructure?
There are already more electric charging locations open in the UK than petrol stations (630 opened in the last 30 days). Google " How many etc ".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mikeC



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 1426
Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

badhuis wrote:

For real classics (40 years plus) there is not a problem, you are allowed everywhere. It is different for cars aged 15-40 years.



But maybe not for much longer. Scotland is proposing to extend their LEZs with no exemption for older vehicles.
_________________
in the garage: 1931 Austin 7, 1953 Lancia Appia
recently departed: 1967 Singer Chamois, 1914 Saxon, 1930 Morris Cowley, 1936 BSA Scout, 1958 Lancia Appia coupe, 1922 Star 11.9 ... the list goes on!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1105
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miken wrote:
peter scott wrote:

Peter

So, how many governments around the world are planning a hydrogen filling infrastructure?
There are already more electric charging locations open in the UK than petrol stations (630 opened in the last 30 days). Google " How many etc ".


There's one in my local town [5 miles away]....a 'pod point', whatever that is? In a local council car park.

Whereas there are 3 petrol stations, including one just a mile from my home.

Whilst places like London or Manchester may have charging points on every street, lamppost or litter bin....more rural areas have very little, if anything.

The biggest problem I can foresee to owning a pure electric car [for me] is, not just whereabouts I can get charged up........but the fact that serious parking space is needed to do so.
Until I can recharge with the ease and rapidity with which I can re-fuel my petrol cars, then electric will remain the preserve of the more well heeled driving population...within large urban areas.
I say 'well heeled'.....in respect of the fact that, at the moment, like many a green lifestyle, it is more down to how to afford to 'go green'...For less well-off folk , doing one's 'bit' is economically impossible.

For me to take electric transport seriously, a new electric car, with a decent range, would have to retail at around the same price as a basic Dacia Sandero........or less.
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Ford Mustang coupe, 1967, 6 cylinder auto.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 249

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So a quick Google search of "How is hydrogen made" and " How do hydrogen powered cars work" seems to suggest that hydrogen, which is made from natural gas and produces significant emissions of CO2 in its manufature, is converted in the car, to electricity, to drive a motor. Not many companies appear to be considering its use to drive a piston engine .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mikeC



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 1426
Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So basically it's still down to burning fossil fuel - whether that's at an electricity generating station, in a hydrogen fuel cell or old-fashioned internal combustion engine?
_________________
in the garage: 1931 Austin 7, 1953 Lancia Appia
recently departed: 1967 Singer Chamois, 1914 Saxon, 1930 Morris Cowley, 1936 BSA Scout, 1958 Lancia Appia coupe, 1922 Star 11.9 ... the list goes on!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 3382
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikeC wrote:
So basically it's still down to burning fossil fuel - whether that's at an electricity generating station, in a hydrogen fuel cell or old-fashioned internal combustion engine?

Hydrogen is not a fossil fuel, and less than 50% of the UK electricity is generated from fossil fuels these days.

Regarding the availability of electric charging pods, I wonder if there were similar concerns about the availability of petrol 100 years ago, you can imagine the argument; "I'm sticking to my horse, it can be fed and watered anywhere, with a car you only have a limited range, and where will you get petrol in say the middle of Wales?"

Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bitumen Boy



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1329
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ukdave2002 wrote:

Regarding the availability of electric charging pods, I wonder if there were similar concerns about the availability of petrol 100 years ago, you can imagine the argument; "I'm sticking to my horse, it can be fed and watered anywhere, with a car you only have a limited range, and where will you get petrol in say the middle of Wales?"


There must have been concerns, but the infrastructure sprang up pretty quickly in those days before planning restrictions and petty regulations on everything. When petrol was commonly sold in cans it was stocked by all sorts of businesses, from grocers to chemists to blacksmiths - the latter often evolving into proper garages.

I'm sure I read somewhere that the first petrol pumps - which would sweep away the original distribution network based on cans - were installed in Shrewsbury, which doesn't seem the most likely place. But then I guess they must have been mushrooming up all over the place just like the "vape shops" are today...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration. Forum Index -> Classic & Vintage Cars - General Chat All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Forum T&C


php BB powered © php BB Grp.