Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[MrWhite]

I am willing to admit, I should be able to do this myself but I am a bit stuck. There are 2 excuses, one, I may well have forgotten some of what I used to know and two I am now using more modern tools giving me more information than I would have had back in the day.
So that over, I am talking about a 1964 Singer Gazelle, it was running fine till today, when I decided to service it. I changed the oil first, all fine, then moved to the ignition system. It's not that long since a lot of the stuff was replaced, so I decided to examine everything and only replace what seemed to be needing it. So I changed the rotor arm, Distributor cap and points, I was going to leave the condenser but I couldn't get it to start, so I changed that but it didn't help, I haven't touched the plugs yet but plan to when I get the other issue sorted.
So I have a multi metre and I found a bad connection on the side of the distributor, previously black taped and crimped connection. Created a soldered connection with heat shrink and I am now getting 12v at the connection, until I plug it on to the dissy then it drops to 5v and 3 at the points. There is no spark at the points and that's where I have left it as it was getting dark and thankfully it's not my daily driver, so it can wait till tomorrow.
I had the problem before I changed the condenser, so still sitting with the new one in-situ. New points in and gapped, new dissy cap fitted and a better positive connection to the distributor, anyone able to say what I am missing?

[ukdave2002]

I presume the cable you repaired is it the distributor connection to the coil?

Assuming you are measuring the voltage between the points and ground? It will vary depending on whether the points are open or closed; when open you are measuring the battery voltage via the coil primarily, when closed the voltage should drop to zero as it’s now connected to ground. In practice even points in good condition have a little bit of resistance, so expect to see around 0.5v when points are closed.
If you are getting a constant low voltage whether the points are open or closed it sounds as if an insulating washer has been omitted when the points were changed, thus they are permanently grounded on both sides.

Dave

[kevin2306]

I had similar issues with my singer vogue a few years back (same engine I think).
As a quick fix I bought an accuspark dizzy, and it's still fitted!

I do appreciate how basic the points etc are but the electronic set up is so covinient and trouble free.
I have a brand new, old stock standard dizzy on the shelf but can't bring myself to remove the accuspark unit.

Hope you get sorted

Kev

[MrWhite]

Yes, wire repaired was the coil to distributor. I checked the insulation today and it all seems fine. I am now suspecting the coil, it heats up quite a lot when I have been doing my tests and later on today it was too hot to touch and that is with me switching it off as much as possible.
I will post some results of tests I have done today later and see what you think. Just ideas I picked up surfing the net last night but nothing conclusive to me, other than this, maybe; I have no power at any tine to either side of the King lead. I also read I should have either 6V or 12 at one of the coil terminals, will clarify later, I have 9v?
Battery is needing a charge now and my back needs to be straightened, so going to look at electrics on a Renault Trafic.....for a rest

[MrWhite]

OK, more info as promised;
Points closed, Ignition on 12.13V at the connection to the distributor. Plug that terminal on to the distributor and it drops to 5V and only 2/3V at the points, so I guess not enough for a spark but that's with points open anyway.
Ignition off everything is 0V, points open or closed.
Ignition on, points closed 5V inside the dissy, 3V at points.
I noticed the coil was warming so whenever I got the chance I switched the ignition off. Despite that though by the end of my tests it was really too hot to hold.
Voltage at coil; Ignition on, negative 11.38V, Positive 0.12V, Ignition off both were 0V.
King lead, searched for voltage but found nothing at either end. Tried cranking with the metal close to earthing point but no sparks.
Someone recommended an old school test light connected to earth and pointer on the neg term of the coil. Cranking the engine should cause the light to flash, well it pulsated but I wouldn't call it a flash, I tried the test metre on it, suggested voltage either 9V or 12V, I got 9.21V.
Dissy wiring, everything connected s it should be, Earths all in tact and seem to be working. Power wire as above but all in tact and looks like they should be fine (but where's the voltage going?).
My final fling was to remove all the new parts and replace with the old, after all it was running and driving fine before I started to do the service. So Dist cap changed back, points removed and old ones fitted (also cleaned the base plate and contacts/connections earlier and made sure all the insulation parts were working and they seemed OK. Rotor arm returned to old one But it's all still the same, what can I say, 'no spark at the points'.
The good thing for me is I don't think this is actually anything I have forgotten. My reading has educated me in several ways as to how it's all meant to work and I would say I know considerably more than when I started, just can't get the blooming car started
Anything anyone can offer will be greatly appreciated.

[ukdave2002]

I think you are over thinking this

The points are a just a simple switch that complete the circuit to the coil; when open there should be 0 volts across the coil, closed there should be around 12v +/- 1v across the coil. This is all you need to test; just turn the engine over until the points are closed and flick them open with a screwdriver.

One though is that you may have a ballast ignition; this is where the vehicle is fitted with a 6v coil in series with a ballast resistor so it can run on 12v, it will have a cable that goes directly from the coil to the starter motor, so when starting the coil has a higher voltage than it is designed to work with, promoting a better spark. If you have a ballast system then expect around 6v across the coil when the points are closed.

On a 12v vehicle the voltage at the coil will drop to around 9v when the engine is cranking on the starter motor, that's normal, and the reason that ballast systems are better when starting.

I'm not sure what you mean by "King Lead" its not a term normally associated with vehicle ignition systems?

The coil will get hot if its permanently on (i.e. ignition on with the points closed)

I'd stick to your meter rather than a test light, even at cranking speed the points will be opening and closing around 4 times per second, so you are not going to get a bright flash!

Finally you are really not trying to get a good spark at the points! the condenser's job is to minimise sparking at the points, there will always be a little sparking as the points are switching a load of several amps, however there should not be a juicy fat spark, if there were the points wouldn't last very long.

Dave

[MrWhite]

I was over-thinking it at 2am this morning, I can tell you that
Are you suggesting then, from the things I have tested that there may be nothing wrong and it should start?
I have had this car for quite a few years, some of them it was little used and at times I had to do a bit of fiddling to get it going but it always did. One of the things I would have checked would have been the spark to the points, so I am sure it would have been a visible spark and now there appears to be none. By King Lead I mean the one that goes form the centre of the distributor cap to the coil, not something I would normally check for voltage but it did seem to make sense that if there wasn't any, I have a problem.
I was trying to minimise the amount of time the ignition was on as I knew the coil was going to heat up, despite that though it got much hotter than I expected and that made me wonder if it may be indicated a coil issue.
I will check for the Ballast system,I didn't think this car was new enough to have it but you never know, certainly ties in with the readings I got, so makes sense.

[alastairq]

The first thing I'd be checking on an ignition system is whether there is a good fat spark at a plug.

A spark plug tester as home-mae by Rick-of-this-parish is excellent. Just pull a plug, keep it attached to its lead, hold it against a good earth [engine is good] then crank the starter. Look for the flash between the electrodes of the plug?

If the plug doesn't spark, check you're holding it correctly nt the engine [a head stud s good] then try again. No spark, then work backwards to check leads, distributor cap, centre carbon sprung contact in the cap....Then flick the points or touch with screwdriver with ignition on, to check they are not earthed out, etc.

If the plug sparks, then, providing the timing is roughly near where it should have been, the issue is fuelling.
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
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Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.

[Penguin45]

A fully charged lead acid battery in good order should show 13.4vDC. If you are only getting 9vDC at the coil there's a BIG resistance somewhere. I'd be chasing that down.

Chris.
_________________
'67 Wolseley MkI 18/85, '70 Austin MkII 1800 The Landcrab Forum.

[ukdave2002]

[MrWhite]

Been out this morning for another look and taking into account what others have said. Checked for spark at the plugs, none. I am back on the old cap and rotor arm which were working, there is contact between the centre post in the cap and the rotor, already checked that. Leads are good quality and pretty new so just made sure all were in the right places and plugged in properly. The points are currently the old ones as well, so known to have been working recently I changed the condenser, now twice ( old one back in and now another new one) but it makes no difference.
So I am getting back to the distributor wiring again. 12V at the terminal on the side of the Distributor but when plugged in dropping to 5V/3V at the actual points. I disconnected the wires from the points and when separate from everything else the power wire remains at 12V all the way to the points connection. Only when the condenser is added does it all drop, maybe that is correct? So I have proved from that (I think) that there is no issue with the small wire and electricity is going to the one side of the points so insulation should be OK.
Just to go back a step; is there any particular order these wires should go on? I have, from the bottom, base plate, insulator, spring, insulator, power wire, condenser wire then the locating nut. I can't really see how swapping the wires around would make much difference and obviously the insulators need to be top and bottom of the metal spring, unless anyone can tell me different?
So I am getting closer to the Coil again, I attached the DMM to the negative and positive terminals on Ohms setting (200) I really didn't think I was going ton get any kind of steady reading but at one stage I did get a steady 2.95. Range is 1.5-1.7, so out of range, what does that mean though?
I tried removing the negative wire (White, not green?) but I wasn't sure at this point whether to test the terminal or wire, this being with a test light, if it's the wire then the light did come on, indicating a points problem I believe. The other side of the coil has a white and black wire but I don't see any going directly to the starter, so I doubt if it's a ballast system?
Checked the centre HT lead to ground looking for spark, none. Checked the voltage at the neg. and pos. terminals , Pos =0.15 and Neg= 12.11. Also tried cranking the engine with the DMM attached to the neg terminal of the coil, got 12V dropping to 9V when cranking.
Going to have lunch now, think that's a fair mornings work, can anyone make any sense of it all?

[ukdave2002]

3 Ohms is right for a 12v coil. You previously mentioned trying to test the voltage on the coil to distributor HT connection, don't do this unless you want to destroy your meter, working this would typically be over 10,000 volts!

The following extract from my Crypton guide may help, these are all static tests (engine not running):

[MrWhite]

Thanks for that, if I am understanding correctly most of what I have is OK and I do have a 12V coil system. Incidentally I wasn't connecting the DMM to the HT side of the coil, just looking for a spark to earth against the block but thanks for the warning anyway.
The last part, I checked the base plate earth wire at both ends and it seems to be earthing OK. The distributor to engine connection has not been touched, I was going to check the timing but never got that far. I wouldn't have thought that would be an issue if it was all Ok before and not touched since? Radio hasn't worked for years, I suppose it could have an inline suppressor, is that worth checking? Otherwise no rev counter and the coil has been the same one for several years (maybe original) with no issues.

[Kenham]

It sounds to me you have the wires to the points the wrong side of the insulator and you are earthing the coil and condenser making the coil hot .

[MrWhite]

Give that man a prize (someone), I had thought about that which was why I posted up the order I put them on in, it seemed obvious at the time and as I had positive at one side of the pints and negative at the other, I assumed it must be correct. So after the comment and another bit of thinking I decided to give it a go, couldn't see what could go wrong (wearing my blinkers of course) as the 2 wires had been together before, swapped them over and straight away I had a spark at the points. Car fired up but it sounded like it was on 3 cylinders although it fairly quickly cleared it's self as it heated up, maybe some fuel or oil in the cylinders I was thinking.
After that I careful swapped all the old components one at a time, starting in between, just to be sure, gave the carb a tweak and it's running sweet as a nut now, so happy.
Thanks to everyone for their replies and info, I have it all written down now, just in case I ever need it.