Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[Rick]

The more I read magazines, the more I read about cars being modified to make them more usable. That's fine, people can do what they want after all and everyone's situation is different, but is this an increasing trend, and is originality becoming less important in the eyes of more and more owners and buyers nowadays?

An article I read yesterday about early Porsche 911s also suggests that buyers are less and less interested in a car being original, with more emphasis being put on modern standards of handling, performance, comfort and convenience etc., but built into a retro-looking car.

RJ
_________________
Rick - Admin
Home:https://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk
Videos:https://www.youtube.com/user/oldclassiccarRJ/videos
OCC & classic car merchandise (Austin, Ford ++):
https://www.redbubble.com/people/OldClassicCar/shop

[peter scott]

I would imagine that both camps will remain active but possibly the really expensive cars will more likely retain their originality. I guess it also depends on how reversible the changes are.

Peter
_________________
https://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon

[badhuis]

I think modified cars usually will be harder to sell.
As an admirer of original cars, I usually can feel with an owner when he/she has modified a car. A friend did put disc brakes to his Stiletto when we went to a tour around the Alps a few weeks ago, a sensible modification in my view. However he found out that the new setup put out the wheels a little bit more to the point where the tyres hit the wheel arches when there was a big bump. Of course he also had fitted too wide tyres Which shows one should always think twice before doing a modification (or two).
(He solved the problem by cutting a water hose length wise and cable tied it to some windings of the front springs, very clever)
_________________
a car stops being fun when it becomes an investment

[lowdrag]

More and more are being modified for modern conditions, and that's fine by me. I have electronic ignition and uprated brakes for instance. But if you are entering a concours event then any deviation from the original will result in marks being deducted. Horses for courses and all that.

[alastairq]

For me, all depends on what sort of modification is/was made..?

Many cars of old [to distinguish from 'old' cars?]...were 'modified' by owners as they went through their lives [cars, not owners].

Gauges would cease to function...so may have been replaced by something that was, then, cheap & current? {Remembering that many cars-of-old were a lot newer then?]

There always was a ready market for 'aftermarket' add-ons....'upgrades', etc.
[ For example, electric wiper conversions instead of vacuum...or washer kits? Flashing indicators? Light upgrades, etc]

The fitting of disc brakes might well have been the sort of 'conversion' carried out whist the car-of-old was still quite young?

Not Forgetting changing tyres from cross ply to radial...[which in itself presented a whole host of problems on a car originally designed around cross plies?]
Were there any cars-of-old that were sold new with a 'choice' of such tyres?

For me, bearing in mind, many mods were 'of the age', and didn't significantly alter the 'characteristics' of the cars concerned..I have no issue with 'non-originality'.

But [in concert with DVSA's current policy regarding age-related MoT exemptions?] I am left cold by the replacement of engines with the likes of modern zetecs [as but one example....although I can see the attraction..not from a power viewpoint, but from one of cost]....

I am undecided with regard to drastic suspension modifications, however....[coils for leaves, for example]...

I can, however, admire the thinking [and to an extent, the execution] of mods & upgrades, done today.

My '67 Mustang coupe sold itself to me on the basis of 'sensible' modifications/upgrades, that might make it more useable as a car on a daily basis....[although this chore it shares with all my others that are road-legal]

It has a disc brake conversion [Ford did offer front discs as an option at the time]....although it doesn't appear to be a fancy [aka expensive] kit...being [I believe] a US Granada front disc conversion...a parts-bin raiding affair.
It has a slightly lowered suspension...[better now I've altered that at the back]...again, achieved by modifications 'of the day' [Shelby drop, for example]...introducing negative camber at the front..which sorts out the compromise Ford were compelled to design in..to suit the 'buying public' of the day.
It has 15 inch [instead of original 14 inch] wheels, of not too extreme size....[in fact, positively conservative in size]...on radials...
Lighting has been enhanced, by the use of LEDs where appropriate [headlights themselves left alone]...and LED arrays at the back [overcomes the issue of the US rear lighting system not conforming to UK rules].

The only real mod I have carried out is replacement of the distributor with a US-made {!} aftermarket distributor of the electronic sort...which, in itself, solved teh as-bought mismatch between carb & dizzy...a result of a previous [US] owner needing [as they thought, a new carb, and buying a replacement from B&Q or the equivalent...and getting the wrong sort.
[It was considerably cheaper for me to go the route I did, rather than buy a 'new' appropriate carb.]

My Dellow has had numerous mods over the years..mainly to instruments, as the originals broke. A supercharger came, & went, and may soon come back again [they were sold with a blower option from new..Dellows being agents for Nordec superchargers at the time.]
My car didn't have one from new, however.
It left the factory with a ten horse sidevalve Ford....but now has a 100E sidevalve Ford, engine. I could change it [back?], but why?
I change the rear crossply tyres [at £180 a throw] for radials [at about a third the cost]...they do fit, although ideally the rear wheels could do with an inch adding to their width..but all is fine, really.

A previous owner had inserted a fuel gauge into the dash ...silly really , as it doesn't have the rest of the stuff needed.......[see another post]..just to fill an existing gauge hole...this I replaced with a cheap [8 quid, delivered] Chinese 55mm diameter rev counter...of entirely the wrong face colour [should be black I suppose, tbut for some reason, black one's were 40 quids!]...as , when I got the car, it had a big rev counter, but no speedo...so I fitted a Ford speedo [Dellows did make their own faces...one day I might open it up and fit one from the club]....and lost the rev counter.....so, to set tick over, and see just how many revs my eardrums could stand, I fitted the little rev counter.
The rest of the car is almost as it left the factory.

Aside from colour [it's had two colour changes in its life]...
Plus, a body mod to the nearside of the engine bay [for fitment more comfortably of aforementioned supercharger]..I have a unaltered side panel [with louvres]...but to revert the bonnet is not a pressing item...
so, as the mods are definitely part of the car's life history,they will stay as they are.
Also, the rear suspension [coils, from factory]...has been 'altered' I think to satisfy the US SCCA racing rules...in that the original Dellow method of fitting coils to the Ford [torque tube] axle was to fit ally castings that sat on top of the axel, held in situ with U-bolts...onto which the coil springs sat.
Mine are sitting on stoutly & neatly welded coil spring mounts on the axle tube itself.....which is a real pain, as i cannot simply 'exchange' the axle tubes for better, 'standard' ford items, as one could with the original mount system....A real issue as Ford ran the wheel bearings onto the outside of the axle casing....which wears, top & bottom..so I've had to fit sleeving kits....[as mine were worn]...
Oh,and for the SCCA, it had a roll bar affixed..permanently!
I suppose that latter could be deemed a 'sensible safety mod?'

Appearance -wise [apart from roll bar] it is exactly as it appears on the cover of the Motor Cycling Club's [now out of print] definitive history, by Peter Garnier ....[possibly a one-time owner?]..
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Motor-Cycling-Club-Peter-Garnier/dp/0715393111

Where one finds a picture of my car, as of the 1980's [when the supercharger was fitted].....bounding up BlueHills Mine, on an MCC land's End Trial.

Mods are part of a car's history..IMHO....some may be sensible...some not so much.
For me..a long as they don't do too much to alter the 'driving character' of the car, then I expect they're fine.
Just let me ignore 2-pack paint...and inappropriate minilite wheels.
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.

[Ray White]

I think originality matters on a car if it has survived the ravages of time without being spoilt. I have conserved rather than restored my 1930 Austin Swallow. For example, I have taken the time and trouble to rescue the original leather seats which had over 30 tears and holes in them and would to most people be regarded as past it.

The original plywood door cards had been eaten away by wood worm behind the Rexine to the point of total collapse. While I could easily renew the plywood, the leather cloth was a different matter. It simply fell to pieces and I was left with a Jig-saw puzzle. My solution was to reassemble the pieces face down on strips of masking tape then overlay the back with muslin soaked in PVA dyed blue. When it had dried the Rexine had been stabilised enough to attach to the plywood. When the masking tape had been carefully peeled off I was pleased with the result.

Originally the door cards would have been tacked to the wooden door but in a departure from original I fitted them with small brass wood screws concealed from view. This meant that the panel could be easily removed to gain access to the window mechanism should it require attention.

The door windows can be pulled down by means of a chrome plated clip that is pressed onto the top of the glass. There is a complicated mechanism involving a cable which is attached to the bottom of the glass frame and which passes over two small pulleys mounted in an assembly behind the door capping. The cable then drops down to a spring loaded barrel with a ratchet that is secured to the bottom rail of the door. The cable wraps around the barrel when the window is pulled down under spring tension and unwinds itself as the window is allowed up again under spring tension.

The mechanism is further refined by allowing the window to be fixed at any point in it's travel by the lifting and depressing of a chrome plated lever which emerges from a catch plate in the door capping.

The whole assembly is a masterpiece of ingenuity rather than engineering and the only concession to originality (apart from laminated glass) is the cable which happens to be a silky smooth 2 meter brake cable which was fortunately available from Halfords.

My obsession with originality has taken me down many a path of research and discovery. I make no claim to fame but I did establish that William Lyons - who was notoriously impecunious - chose not to fit his cars' roof lining out with expensive West of England cloth but bought in cheap and cheerful brushed cotton. When I replaced the frightfully ragged roof lining I copied the original stitch for stitch and made certain that every fold was an exact copy of the original. The lining pattern is readily available free of charge to any other careful restorer.

One can go on and on about originality but my efforts have extended to re creating the silver plated 'Houbigaunt' ladies' companion set that is often missing from the glovebox lid. This was a vastly expensive exercise but I found buyers for every one made.

Perhaps the most rewarding thing I have ever done involves reproducing the 25 yards of braiding or 'pasting lace' that adorns a properly restored Swallow saloon. I can lay claim to tracking down the exact same Jacquard loom that the original braiding was made on in the 1920s and early '30s. These days it is in regular use with Trimmings by Design; a local Derby company who can reproduce exactly the right pattern in single or double sided braid - and in whatever colour combinations are required. The cost is high but in my opinion well worth the expense to get it right.

[ukdave2002]

When I restored my MGA, I used loads of bits from other MGA's, loads of repro bits, some of which look quite like the original . So whilst the car looks pretty original, its a long way from being so.

Dave

[Rootes75]

I love things to be original and having that patina is important to me. But, if something is too far gone I have restored and replaced, its horses for courses as they say.
_________________
Various Rootes Vehicles.

[Ray White]

I sometimes wish it had been me who had found my MG TC. Although it had been completely dismantled back in 1960 I feel an opportunity was missed to rebuild it as a really cool oily rag car.

I have very little to thank the previously owner for but probably his painting over every inch of patina was particularly tiresome; especially as the job was so poorly done it will all need doing again.

[lowdrag]

As I finally said when, after judging a car and deducting points and then being tirelessly followed by the disgruntled owner "where did you find the 1961 air to blow up the tyres?". There's originality and then there's originality. Where today can you find cellulose paints for example? Dunlop stopped making RS crossply tyres three years ago and they were standard fit on Jaguars up until 1964. The list goes on and on. Finding mild steel exhausts isn't easy either. I suppose that in Jaguar world the best example of cars being brought up to a usable standard in today's world would be either Eagle or Evolution E-types. Air con, five speed box, uprated engines with fuel injection, infotainment - these are designed as every-day usage cars for the rich, and I mean rich, An Eagle low drag will set you back around £700,000 I believe, and a two year waiting list to boot. I'd love to have one though!

[alanb]

I suppose if taken to its limit a car loses its originality the first time something is changed i.e. It's first service?.
_________________
old tourer


Morris 8 two seater

[alastairq]

I suppose originality could be, simply, the car's character when new/in use?
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.

[Riley Blue]

I've never really understood why owners of cars produced in their hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands are obsessed with 'originality'. Outside the world of cars, few things remain 'as created'; furniture is adapted, paintings are over-painted, houses modernised, musical works interpreted, even when they are unique items worth millions they have been sometimes been changed in one way or another.

I once told a group of Riley enthusiasts I was taking my RME back to Abingdon to put some 'authentic air' in its tyres. Several of them thought I was serious.
_________________
David

1963 Riley 1.5
1965 Riley 1.5

[alastairq]

[Ray White]

I think there is a difference between something which is original and something which is authentic.

If I wanted to I could rebuild my "basket case" MG as an authentic example of what came out of Abingdon in 1949. Along with lamentable performance, it would retain the heavy Bishop Cam steering; the noisy gearbox, the dreadfully low ratio back axle and I could re create missing or derelict parts like the seats, the dash board and the body tub etc............... In effect I would have a matching numbers replica; authentic in every detail.!

...but it would still not be "original".