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Brake line flaring
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only reservation that I would have about this would be the possibility liability claims if someone made a mess of the job and injured theirselves. Or am I worrying to much?

Using brake pipe flaring as an example. UK has done a good job explaining the 'how to.' I could well see someone reading his description, going out to buy a tool, then making up a pipe out of the wrong material. This pipe would then fail, personal injury result, and then the fault being laid on the forum article.
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 3555
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: Brake line flaring Reply with quote

SloResto wrote:
I have started to undo the lines and will take them to another brake place who say that they can turn the single flares into doubles.


Was chatting in our local last night with a chap who used to run a garage and I mentioned your post, he offered a word of caution;

As you have already fitted the pipes, and they sealed they will have formed the second flare. By taking them off and then putting another 2nd flare on with a tool will slightly alter the profile of the flare again , then when you bolt them back on, again you will alter this 2nd flare for a 3rd time. Each time you flare the pipe the metal will be getting thinner and harder, so you really do run the risk of introducing splits in the pipe.

He also commented that with the softer materials used in brake pipes these days, you can get away without putting the 2nd flare in, as the pipe will form this as it is tightened up, where as the steel pipes could crack.

In summary his advice was leave well alone, if the pipes have sealed when fitted it is highly unlikely they will fail later, and that you are far more likely to get a failure re-forming the fitted pipes.

Dave
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SloResto



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi UKDave

Thanks so much for the trouble you have gone to to reply to my small problem.

Your friend does make sense about reflaring the already flared pipes and risking a leak.

So I will leave well enough alone and be thankful for one less thing to do and money to fork out. Luckily I have only taken off the pipes on the rear axle so will be easy to reconnect up again.

I suppose in a way we have stumbled across one of the intrigueing things of bringing old cars back to life. The science involved in this case metallurgy and the skills you learn which makes completing the various stages all the more satisfying and the reason for the addiction (insanity). Very Happy

I will still track down the tool as I have to make up some brake lines for the other cars so your diagrams will be very useful.

Yes UJ the brake place had my complete set of old lines including the brake pipe nuts which they cut of and transferred to the new lines.

And Rick I feel another section with "golden tips" would be a great idea as it can be more easily referenced than digging through the myriad of past posts. Perhaps we could copy them across, leaving the originals where they are so they can be doubly findable if practicable?

Thanks again
cheers
Mark


Last edited by SloResto on Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 3555
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uncle Joe wrote:
The only reservation that I would have about this would be the possibility liability claims if someone made a mess of the job and injured theirselves. Or am I worrying to much?

Using brake pipe flaring as an example. UK has done a good job explaining the 'how to.' I could well see someone reading his description, going out to buy a tool, then making up a pipe out of the wrong material. This pipe would then fail, personal injury result, and then the fault being laid on the forum article.


Suing anyone for amateur unpaid advice given over the internet, would be a non starter UJ, if it was a problem then forums would be shutting doors left right and centre. The only time there may be a problem is if it is malicious, even then its not clear who is liable so difficult to prove.

It doesn’t worry me but f anyone was concerned they can add a very simple disclamer.

Dave
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SloResto



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to recall there being a general site disclaimer re advice offered.. maybe in the initial join up email.

Mark
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 21314
Location: North-west UK

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup it gets covered in the Welcome category at the head of the forum, and this category also gets a mention in the email I send out to new subscribers

Rick
http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/forum/phpbb/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=9599
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Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
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Phil - Nottingham



Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 1254
Location: Nottingham

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree about reflaring the pipes I just hope they have sealed and the overtightening of them to partially form the double flair has not caused the union or cylinder to have ahairline crack which may not become apparent for some time.

I remain of the opinion that to rely on the fitting to form the double flare is very bad and dangerous practice even with soft copper tubes. Some people who should know better take dangerous short cuts
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dalbuie



Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 408
Location: Gullane

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting and couldn't be better timed as I've just started looking at what pipes I'll need to replace and whether I will need a flaring tool - or to try and borrow one.

A question on how to size the pipes and unions, do you measure the inner pipe size? The pipes that are on in are 3/16 inner measurement and the outer thread width on the union is approx 3/8, am I therefore looking at standard 3/16 copper brake pipes with standard 3/8 fittings? They all have double flares just now.

Cheers
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 3555
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dalbuie wrote:
Very interesting and couldn't be better timed as I've just started looking at what pipes I'll need to replace and whether I will need a flaring tool - or to try and borrow one.

A question on how to size the pipes and unions, do you measure the inner pipe size? The pipes that are on in are 3/16 inner measurement and the outer thread width on the union is approx 3/8, am I therefore looking at standard 3/16 copper brake pipes with standard 3/8 fittings? They all have double flares just now.

Cheers


Hi Dalbuie
Brake pipe is measured by the outside diameter.Most common sizes on older motors are 3/16 & 1/4, with 3/16 being more common of the two. If your pipes are 3/16 then the unions (or brake nuts as the are sometimes called) will be 3/8. However there are two 3/8 threads on brake fittings,20 TPI (threads per inch) and 24TPI, so you just need to measure and count the threads on one of the old fittings.

By the way the tool I used in the pic was only about £15, from machine mart, also copper nickel brake pipe is suposed to be better than pure copper, as it wont harden with age, it only cost about £5 more on an average car IMHO so worth it.

Dave
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dalbuie



Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 408
Location: Gullane

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The outside measurement looks like its 1/4 inch


Not sure what that makes the brake nuts.
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

US vehicles are slightly different to british ones as regards brake lines and fittings. Depending on the vehicle, there can be one of 5 different sizes of brake line, all measured as UK says by the outside diameter

1/8" brake line (rare) usually uses 5/16-24 threaded nipple.

3/16" brake line can use one of 3 different nipples. A 3/8-24, a 9/16-18, or a 7/16-20.

1/4" brake line can also use one of 3 different nipples. A 7/16-20, a 9/16-18, or a 1/2-20.

5/16" brake line uses 1/2-20 nipples.

3/8" brake line uses 1 of two nipples. A 5/8-18 or a 11/16-?? (not sure of that one, its rare as well.

1/2" can also be found, but usually only on lorries and larger vehicles.

As I've said twice before on this topic, be careful of the brake line material also.
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 3555
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep its 1/4 " pipe and the brake nuts will be 7/16, again they come in both 20 & 24 TPI.

Dave


Last edited by ukdave2002 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dalbuie



Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 408
Location: Gullane

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks UJ

Looks very much like 7/16 then.

I only need 2 short lengths, 1 female and 3 male nuts as all the rest is reasonably new and no corrosion. Just replacing the bits that were missing along with 3 new flexi pipes which I have ordered.

May ask some more once I start putting them all together.
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dalbuie, why not consider a brake upgrade? Or are you planning on doing your chev totally original?

I started an upgrade on my 300, when I saw the reduction in brake distance....ordered the last of the parts today.
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dalbuie



Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 408
Location: Gullane

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to keep it as original as possible especially as the old parts are still readily available.

If I was going for an upgrade I would probably go for the disc brake upgrade - but will be leaving this until after I've used it and gauged if this is necessary.
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