Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

Rick · Site Admin Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 22780 Location: UK

Vic emailed this query over the other day. Can anyone help with information? I've a feeling I've read about this one somewhere before.

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Hi, I found your site while browsing and wonder if you have any thoughts on
this car.

The following link will take you to a Webshots page with some interesting
photos.

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/561736172YLKzYN

Most of us would say this car is a Humber Sceptre Mk 1. It's left hand drive
and has a metric speedo, suggesting it was made for a European country, and
someone has suggested the number plate is from Portugal.

A closer inspection shows that it is badged (including the grille) as a
Sunbeam Rapier, and it has a wooden dash like a Mk 5 Rapier, not at all like
the Sceptre dash with it's vinyl dash and hooded instruments - although the
centre console is more like the Sceptre. It also is painted a little
differently from a production Sceptre, and has different over-riders - both
are more in line with a Rapier.

Now, it's generally known that the Sceptre was originally intended to
replace the Audax Sunbeam Rapier, and to take it's name - it should have
been the Rapier 4. The Sceptre even has a chassis/engine number consistent
with it being a Sunbeam Rapier. The decision to continue the Rapier and sell
the Sceptre as a different make/model was taken at the last minute. I have
been told that at least one prototype was made, badged as a Rapier.

So, is this car an elaborate fake/replica/mock up? Or could it be a genuine
prototype/pre-production Sunbeam Rapier (Sceptre bodied)? Do you have any
ideas ?

Thanks,

Vic
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peter scott · Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 7211 Location: Edinburgh

Some strange pieces of badge engineering do show up but this doesn't look like a factory product. Rootes Group dashboards are generally very well presented and would never be held in place by a couple of dirty great screws on the surface. My view would be that this is an example from someone who wanted his Sceptre to look more like a Rapier.

Peter
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Phil - Nottingham · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 1252 Location: Nottingham

Defintely Mk1 Sceptre (Rootes were going to make this the MkIV rapier though but changed their minds as too big). Could dash from same period Singer Vogue with extra gauges as these were wood
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poodge · Joined: 23 Nov 2007 Posts: 687

I'm with Peter,definitely something dodgy here.It's not even correct for a Sceptre,as they had much more elaborate hubcaps.

RotaryBri · Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 465 Location: Warwick

I reckon that the number pates are Dutch.

There were prototypes badged up as Sunbeam Rapiers so it might be one but I doubt that any escaped from the factory.
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47p2 · Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 2009 Location: Glasgow

Did the Rootes Group not rebadge certain models with different names for foreign markets?
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poodge · Joined: 23 Nov 2007 Posts: 687

lemansvk · Joined: 16 Aug 2010 Posts: 12

Thanks to all who commented on this. There seems to be a general consenus here and elsewhere that this is a Sceptre with a few mods to make it look like a Rapier and confuse the punters. The dashboard seems to be the clincher; the centre console is straight Sceptre and it is a really bad fit to the upper wood part.

With regard to the plates, I have had someone from the Netherlands confirm that they are not Dutch, but in fact Portugese. Another friend sent me a period photo of a Rapier IV with four headlights (like the Sceptre set-up) that was some kind of test car - it too was carrying plates like this one - apparently Rootes generally ran their test cars in Europe away from the cameras of the UK press.

Someone else commented that Rootes badged models differently for different markets, and this is very true. The later, Arrow-based Sceptre was sold as the Sunbeam Sceptre in Europe. But the earlier one was sold as a Humber..

Cheers,

Vic

1963 Sunbeam Alpine
1969 Hillman Hunter

badhuis · Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Posts: 1467 Location: Netherlands

Regarding rebadging of Rootes in Europe -
I think I made mention of that in another topic, whatever.
Around 1966 the Singer make disappeared here in Holland, all models were still available but renamed as Sunbeam.
Around the same time the same fate happened to Humber and Hillman. Again, all models still available but all as Sunbeam.

So around 1969 when you stepped into a Sunbeam dealer you could have the choice of a Sunbeam Minx, or a Sunbeam Hunter, or a Sunbeam Vogue, or a Sunbeam Sceptre - all variations on the same model (Arrow)!
Of course this was very confusing.

Singer Chamois were always Sunbeam Chamois here, same for Californians. It became confused when the UK Sunbeam Imp came out. This was a sportier model compared to the basic Hillman Imp having 2 carburettors, and was never sold in Holland because we already had the Sunbeam Imp (the UK Hillman Imp)! Also the Chamois Sport was never sold here (and, which is a real pity, the Husky - estate variant).

Of course 10 years on all was gone and replaced by (French Simca) Talbots.

And yes, those number plates are definitively not Dutch, but Portugese.

peter scott · Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 7211 Location: Edinburgh

How a Rapier version of the Sceptre might have looked.

Peter.

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Keith D · Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:54 pm Post subject:

Just to muddy the water even more, that car (or something very, very similar) was sold in Australia as the Humber Vogue!

http://www.sa.hillman.org.au/Ern_Humber1.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hccsa/2849744205/

Keith

peter scott · Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 7211 Location: Edinburgh

Hi Keith,

No it wasn't! You are missing the fact that the blue/white car has only two (wide) doors.

Peter
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Keith D · Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:08 pm Post subject:

Actually Peter, I was refering to the photo in the original post in this thread!

Keith

Rich5ltr · Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 681 Location: Hampshire, UK

So what is the blue & white car? A sScepter which has had the rear doors welded and filled or a photoshop?

peter scott · Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 7211 Location: Edinburgh

It started life as a Sceptre but has had major surgery to extend its front doors to form a proper two door car.

c.f.

It also has a more modern power unit. I forget what it's from now but I think it gives out about 200 bhp.

Peter
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon