Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
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rob needs
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 22
Location: Bristol
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 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:21 pm Post subject: Ethanol 10.. |
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Do you think we should have a 'Sticky' on this subject. It sounds like this will be in the fuel by 2013! This stuff rots everything.Some firm are bringing out an additive,but it doesn't stop deterioration of,seals, tanks,metal components such as carburettors etc.
This could be serious Sh*t for the old car game.Ok if you replace all vulnerable parts.
'From the oil companies point of view, the classic car movement is too small for it to be given special treatment'
Taken from 'Old Faithful' Humber car club article by Vernon. |
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Rick
Site Admin
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 22779
Location: UK
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Churchill Johnson
Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 359
Location: Rayleigh Essex
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I have been using some stuff called slosh i get from the old twenty site suitable for ethanol fuel as well its cellulose based and so far have used it on 2 diesel tanks and 2 petrol tanks seems to work ok. |
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Bayliss Thomas
Joined: 25 Sep 2009
Posts: 557
Location: SUFFOLK
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| So when this petrol damages my engine I will consider suing the oil company involved for damages. |
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34HF90
Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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I'm pretty new to this forum but thought this would be the place to come to get some feedback on this.
It's all pretty worrying, what with stories of damage to rubber components, rust in petrol tanks and the 'washing out' of alloy components (like carb. bodies!).
Decided to do a bit of independent research and found this page from an American insurer that conducted some real-life (or as near to real life) tests to see what the dangers actually were.
http://www.hagerty.com/ethanol
It seems that it can be coped with PROVIDED they don't increase the concentration beyond E10.
Does anyone know what is actually going on here in the UK with concentrations?
I guess that in the end we will need some real life evidence of the damage, because if it happens it'll be affecting everyone who runs any older petrol vehicle.  |
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lowdrag
Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 1600
Location: Le Mans
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:56 am Post subject: |
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The problem at the moment is that it all seems to be scaremongering and we don't really know what will happen until it has been in use for some time. The articles talking about problems are given prominence whereas those indicating no real problem don't get publicity. Here's one such report for example:-
http://classiccars.about.com/od/maintenancetips/a/Ethanol.htm
At the moment I am sitting on the fence. As a Jaguar lover I remember the unleaded wailings but my car has run over 60,000 on standard 95 octane with no problems.
Sometimes the reports are greatly exaggerated and we need more tested scientific input to guide us. |
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Rick
Site Admin
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 22779
Location: UK
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34HF90
Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The problem at the moment is that it all seems to be scaremongering and we don't really know what will happen until it has been in use for some time. The articles talking about problems are given prominence whereas those indicating no real problem don't get publicity. Here's one such report for example:-
http://classiccars.about.com/od/maintenancetips/a/Ethanol.htm
At the moment I am sitting on the fence. As a Jaguar lover I remember the unleaded wailings but my car has run over 60,000 on standard 95 octane with no problems.
Sometimes the reports are greatly exaggerated and we need more tested scientific input to guide us. |
I'm tending to agree now, having read up a bit about it. As you say, there's so little hard evidence out there either way and maybe we will only know once it's been with us for a while, as you say.
I had looked towards the light aircraft fraternaty for information, since there had been a limited approval to use forecourt petrol in some circumstances. That now seems to be discouraged due to the advent of ethanol. However, this would appear to be precautionary rather than due to any evidence of damage- and mostly due to the vapourisation characteristics of ethanol (vapour locks etc).
As an example there are many scare stories that circulate about gearbox damage caused by the use of GL5 gear oil in older cars. I've never actually seen a gearbox damaged in this way- although there are plenty of gearboxes destroyed through having no oil at all!
Regarding Jags and unleaded, I well remember lapping in a set of valves on a 1973 XJ6. It took FOREVER!  Enough to convince me that the seats were hard enough to withstand mere unleaded petrol.  |
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34HF90
Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I heard mention yesterday that Total aren't using Ethanol at present in any of their unleaded fuels, fact or fiction I wonder?
RJ
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Difficult to verify, but going back to the aircraft thing- there is available a 'testing kit' apparently, that will enable one to establish the presence of ethanol.
No idea how it works though.......  |
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Brian M
Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Leigh-on-Sea, Essex
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Press release from FBHVC
ETHANOL in Petrol: Corrosion, Compatibility, and Combustion
The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs (FBHVC) report that their research into the effects of increased amounts of ethanol in petrol is continuing. They have identified the “three Cs” in this respect – Corrosion, Compatibility and Combustion.
Corrosion in fuel tanks and failure of traditional materials used in fuel systems due to incompatibility with ethanol cause fuel leaks. Because fuel leaks create a high risk of fire or explosion, these matters have been given priority in extensive articles in the FBHVC's newsletter since October 2008. These articles show how the problems associated with corrosion and compatibility have been identified. As a consequence the FBHVC is in the process of commissioning a programme to test commercial additives designed to overcome corrosion problems.
Combustion, on the other hand, affects only the driveability of a vehicle and poses no significant risk to life or limb. Ethanol has long been recognised as a fuel supplement that improves performance and the FBHVC considers it unlikely that the modest proportions of ethanol in modern fuel will have anything other than a positive effect on the combustion process. Others, who take a different view, have criticised the FBHVC for not doing more to investigate the assertion that the presence of ethanol leads to slow combustion in low-compression engines resulting in poor performance, overheating and damage to exhaust valves.
The Federation continues to research these issues and investigation into aspects of combustion will be its next target with the aid of an independent consultant.
Notes for Editors
FBHVC exists to “uphold the freedom” to use historic vehicles on the road.
Research by the Federation in 2006 shows that historic vehicle activity is worth over £3 billion annually to UK PLC. The FBHVC has about 500 historic vehicle clubs in membership representing around 250,000 individual owners. It also counts in its membership a large number of professional restorers and traders whose livelihood depends on a robust historic vehicle movement.
FBHVC is currently undertaking a survey to bring the 2006 research up to date and encourages anyone with an interest is old vehicles to take part.
The survey questionnaire is available on line at www.fbhvc.co.uk/survey-2011/
Further information from Jim Whyman 01984 656995 (admin@fbhvc.co.uk) or
Roger Wrapson 07804 697066.
_________________
Brian
1970 Volvo Amazon and 1978 Safari 15-4 Caravan
Classic Safari Forum: www.classicsafaris.co.uk |
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Jim.Walker
Joined: 27 Dec 2008
Posts: 1229
Location: Chesterfield
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| lowdrag wrote: | The problem at the moment is that it all seems to be scaremongering and we don't really know what will happen until it has been in use for some time. The articles talking about problems are given prominence whereas those indicating no real problem don't get publicity. Here's one such report for example:-
http://classiccars.about.com/od/maintenancetips/a/Ethanol.htm
At the moment I am sitting on the fence. As a Jaguar lover I remember the unleaded wailings but my car has run over 60,000 on standard 95 octane with no problems.
Sometimes the reports are greatly exaggerated and we need more tested scientific input to guide us. |
I love the expression "unleaded wailings"!
I am NOT sitting on the fence! I run a 1968 Triumph car and two Triumph motorbikes from the 1950s.
All are used regularly on 95 Octane unleaded without additives.
I have not recorded the actual mileage of the car, but it must well exceed 60,000 miles on unleaded (a high percentage towing trailers and caravans) and the motorbikes probably about 20,000 miles between them.
NONE have shown any symptoms of trouble either from the lack of tetra eythl lead in the petrol or the substitution of Ethanol. None have been modified in any way.
I am MUCH MORE CONCERNED about salt on the road, because I run my vehicles regularly all year round!
Jim.
_________________
Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then! |
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Keith D
Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 1164
Location: Upper Swan, Western Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:21 am Post subject: |
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I'm a bit like lowdrag and Jim Walker.
I can remember the coming of unleaded (!986 in Oz) and the end of leaded petrol (end of the nineties in Oz) and can remember the prophets of doom. "Old cars will be extinct within a couple of years" and rubbish like that!
My cars have run on unleaded petrol quite happily for the last 12 or so years on unleaded and my only worry has been to make sure I use the correct octane rating. Our standard unleaded petrol is 91 octane, but we can get ultra which is 95 octane. I have had no problems at all that could be blamed on unleaded petrol despite large mileages.
Until I find that the 10% ethanol blend is harming my cars, I refuse to worry about it. After all, if it's that evil then it will affect new cars as well!
Keith |
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