Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
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Julian
Joined: 19 Apr 2010 Posts: 278 Location: Warrington
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Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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Bitumen Boy wrote: | I imagine it's possible to make something sufficiently accurate at home, but I'd want to use a more stable material - Lego, old coathangers, wet newspapers, anything really... |
I think this too. When I worked in a garage the tracking gauge we had was just a contraption that fitted to the 'lip' on each wheel rim, had a light source and graduated scale on one and a mirror on the other. So simple that you could make one with a few odds and ends and some lengths of angle iron. Today, the light source could be a simple laser pointer available off e-bay for a few quid.
That said, I find the Trackright that I have more than OK so I tend to lose interest in making something else!
Julian. |
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Kelsham
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 349 Location: Llandrindod Wells Powys
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:59 am Post subject: tracking alignment |
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Hi, In am in danger of being seen as a sales rep for Gunsons, I had a Rover 100 that kept pulling to one side, not a lot but noticeable.
I tried tracking it with the Trakrite. It gave satisfactory readings, but the car still pulled to the nearside. I took it to my local tyre depot. I explained the problem, and paid for a four wheel alignment.
The tyre fitter said, Hmm. He released the track rod and twiddled it about a bit.
Took payment and when I asked his opinion, truthfully stated he did not think I would find much difference.
He was right. Four wheel alignement had failed to locate fault.
£25 lighter I returned home and had a eureaka moment. I ran the rear wheels over the Trakrite and discovered that one of the rear wheels had a bearing beginning to go in the swinging arm.
when using the Trakrite, first loosen of the trackrod ends. Then with the car off the jack drive it up and down to settle the suspension.
I try to get a helper to drive the car over the Trakrite, but usually am forced to settle for the wife.(she tends to be careless as to my safety)
Learning to roll over swiftly is one of my accomplishments.
Place the Trakrite in position and have the car driven over it at walking pace. This checks the alignment when the driving loads are on the suspension.
It is possible to do it alone but lying on the floor and jumping into the car with dirty overalls slows the job down.
Once the trackrods are loose you can turn the trackrod to adjust toe in or out easily and then recheck.
The hard bit is reaching under the low car to access the trackrod.
regards Kels. |
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whiteshadow
Joined: 24 Jan 2011 Posts: 78
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:14 am Post subject: Thanks! |
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Thanks guys, this has all been very helpful!
I too possess the tools and skills to make a clever jig, but I find that I still tend to buy a suitable tool as it stops me over-thinking and over-engineering. A job which could take a few minutes with the right tool ends up being yet another project taking a week......I realise that's just my problem.
I've really got to get cracking putting stuff back together!....so many problems yet to find! |
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Jim.Walker
Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 1229 Location: Chesterfield
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Trakrite YES YES!
In the end the object of toe-in (or toe-out on some vehicles) is to make the wheels on the same axle run parallel when in motion.
On new vehicles the compliance (give) of suspension and steering joints is predictable. As vehicles age the compliance and wear changes, so setting an old car up to "new" settings is unpredictable.
The Trakrite tells you if they are running parallel with the vehicle in motion which is the requirement.
On driving wheels I tend to drive the car over with VERY SLIGHT brake drag to simulate tractive resistance.
Cars with independent rear suspension often reveal a fault when Trakrite is used, so it is always good sense to check the rear wheels on those too.
Some, Triumph Heralds etc. in particular, go wildly out of track as the spring sags a little with age. Haynes and perhaps others ignore this point and do not even publish tracking figures for Heralds even for post re-building work.
One of the garage equipment manufacturers used to produce a heavier and sturdier version for commercial use, but I cannot remember the manufacturer. It may have been Picavant.
Jim.
P.S. I wonder it Gunsons will reward me for this endorsement! _________________ Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then! |
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ka
Joined: 03 Dec 2007 Posts: 600 Location: Orkney.
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject: Tracking |
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I too will sound as though I am on the "take", but have also found the drive-over tracking gauge effective. As an alternative one of the earlier comments points towards using lasers and a home made clamping system. One of the well known German cheap shops has just had laser-spirit levels, with a magnetic body. I have tracked the Morgan up by just using the magnet against the wheel, (one on each wheel) marking on the garage door and then moving the car further away and adjusting out the difference. seems to have worked fine. _________________ KA
Better three than four. |
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peter scott
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 7126 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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I hesitate to draw attention to my method but if tyre wear patterns are any judge it seems to have worked for me...
http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk/new_page_3.htm
Peter
p.s. I see I last adjusted mine in 1995 which is about 20k miles ago in my old SS. _________________ http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon
Last edited by peter scott on Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MVPeters
Joined: 28 Aug 2008 Posts: 822 Location: Northern MA, USA
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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In my opinion, Peter's basic technique is liable to be the simplest "home-brewed" one on a real classic vehicle.
Keep in mind two things:
1 - these discussions have really been about what I call "toe-in"; what I call "tracking" relates to the whole car - as in overall front & rear alignment. Your toe-in could be perfect, but if the rear axle is out of line, or the chassis warped, the tracking won't be correct.
2 - consider what adjustments are provided on a classic car - toe-in only on the vast majority. Granted there are sometimes wedges under axles but rarely any real "adjustment" for castor or camber. On a modern car you'll find slotted holes & shims in all sorts of places.
There's perhaps a minor improvement to be made to Peter's technique - I said "perhaps":
To centre the steering wheel, disconnect the drop arm & with the spokes level, mark TDC on the wheel. Turn it full left & right & mark each - if the L&R marks are equidistant from TDC, the wheel is centered on the steering box - somehow lock it there. (Fixing free play is a different topic, but fix it!). Reconnect the drop arm.
To set the toe-in, think of a pogo-stick or a spring-loaded shower curtain rod. You need two pieces of tubing, one sliding inside the other with a spring inside & a sharp point on each end. Wedge it horizontally between the rims of the front wheels as high up as you can - mark where the two tubes join. Now push the car forward until the wheels have rotated 180 degrees - the mark should be 1/16" or 1/8" (or whatever toe-in you want) away from the join. You'll be limited by the sump/chassis hitting the tube, but you'll still get a relative measurement if you can't get a full half-turn.
Once you've set the toe-in, drive it to see if the steering is straight & adjust both tie-rods equally until it is - don't move the steering wheel on the splines. The only 'risk' by using the tie-rods is that you'll run out of thread - you won't, but if you do, you've got a much, much bigger problem.
I will add that the Trakrite seems to do well for many folks - I did review their videos & it seems like an effective tool.
For any 'moderns', & particularly for the almost-new VW that started this thread, you can't avoid a professional four-wheel laser alignment - it costs money, but probably less than new tyres.
Just my 6d-worth & more than my pocket-money. _________________ Mike - MVPeters at comcast.net
2002 MINI Cooper 'S' |
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Jim.Walker
Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 1229 Location: Chesterfield
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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Mike, I am sorry but I dispute your "toe in" checking "as high as you can".
The check should be done at mid-wheel height, and then only after checking that both rims run true. If centre height cannot be acheived on the inner rim it should be done on the outer rim.
I do not check my "toe in" very often, but I am in th habit of running my fingers across the tyre tread of each wheel whenever I check the tyre pressures. If the "feel" is even in both directions, experience has told me there is not much to worry about. But if the "feel" in one direction is like running a finger in the cutting direction along "say" a hacksaw blade, then the tracking is questionable.
This habit has served me very well over many years.
Incidently, my Gentry has a facility for rear wheel toe in adjustment and even road spring sag can affect it. So I always "feel" the rears as well.
Jim. _________________ Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then! |
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MVPeters
Joined: 28 Aug 2008 Posts: 822 Location: Northern MA, USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Mike, I am sorry but I dispute your "toe in" checking "as high as you can".
The check should be done at mid-wheel height, and then only after checking that both rims run true. If centre height cannot be acheived on the inner rim it should be done on the outer rim.
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Yes Jim, you're quite correct. Ideally the mid-point should be used but on many cars something underneath (sump/exhaust) will be lower than the mid-wheel point at the rear of the wheel, preventing a full 180 degree measurement. We're not looking for 'absolute' measurements here, just the difference between the two.
Incidentally, if you check at 3 or 4 points around the rim, this method may detect a bent wheel - I had assumed that Peter's check-list of eliminating wear in other areas had already been done.
Your tyre-feeling tips are valuable - I also check along the tyre looking for 'scalloping', which seems quite prevalent on strut-equipped cars - but they're not 'classics'! (I think one of the earliest was the 105E Ford & I still can't put 60's cars into the classic category). _________________ Mike - MVPeters at comcast.net
2002 MINI Cooper 'S' |
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Julian
Joined: 19 Apr 2010 Posts: 278 Location: Warrington
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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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MVPeters wrote: | [Yes Jim, you're quite correct. Ideally the mid-point should be used but on many cars something underneath (sump/exhaust) will be lower than the mid-wheel point at the rear of the wheel, preventing a full 180 degree measurement |
Yep, that's absolutely correct. What I could add is that the measuring contraption that you use could be cranked to clear more of the underside structure.
To be honest I've only used this method once, on a 7.5 ton Ford cargo, I used a length of wood with some coat-hanger wire fastened to each end!
Julian. |
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Jim.Walker
Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 1229 Location: Chesterfield
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:52 am Post subject: |
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All the commercially available "tracking" gauges I have seen which physically check toe-in have been in the form of a bar with cranked ends designed to be adjustable to mid height on the wheel rim. Mostly externally, but one internally.
To me "tracking" suggests toe in or out. I remember one or two cars which were actually set statically to toe OUT. One model I seem to remember was a razor edge Triumph - never understood why. Whether the rear wheels are following truly I regard as "alignment" and camber and caster and K.P.I. is steering "geometry" to me.
Jim. _________________ Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then! |
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