Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[Castellated nut]

Even if repairs to a vehicle finished in water-based paint are feasible (the need for a lacquer coat must make repair more complicated), this does not solve the problem of how to deal with our cellulose painted cars. It is a safe bet that a water-based paint applied over cellulose is NOT going to stick, and it certainly won't be possible to flat it down to make an invisible repair as we can with cellulose.

Given the very small amount of cellulose vehicle refinishing being done these days, it is really inconceivable that eliminating it is going to have any environmental effect on anything at all. Presumably the European Commissioner for Banning Stuff worries about job security unless he can make a nuisance of himself.

Do I understand from Uncle Joe's last comment that the USA has already gone down this road? (I am UK based).

[Uncle Joe]

First of all, the USA does seem to be in advance of Europe in this respect but, as far as I am aware, they have not taken the step fully, as yet. Maybe some of the forums American members can answer this better.

You dont need to have a laquer coat! A laquer coat is only needed if you want the extra protection or shine. As is, to my eyes water based looks flatter / duller, and therefore much more suitable for a restoration, as it looks older.

I have the Application Guide to the paint we used in front of me. According to that, water based paint can be sprayed over bare metal, without the need of a primer, and key effectively. This is in fact what we did on one of the test pieces, and it seemed to work. When we spray the whole car, I will check again to see if it really has! The guide also states that it will adhere to all finishes or substrates. If this is correct, keying to cellulose should not be an issue.

As far as flatting it down after a repair goes, I cant really see a problem there either. It does seem to flow better than other paints, and therefore the need for flatting is significantly reduced. If there is a need to hide the repair, then this could easily be done with compound.

The more I think about this, the more positive I become to these types of paint. That is of course, until the whole vehicle is refinished, and we have found some serious problems!

As far as vehicles are concerned, I´m a bit of a traditionalist, and like things to be done "as was." Therefore, I do have problems accepting change! But in this case, the change seems to be for the better!

[Castellated nut]

Uncle Joe, I must admit I'm very surprised that you seem to regard these water-base paints as a Good Thing and the banning of cellulose as an "advance"!!

Is it possible that a lacquer coat is needed because the paint is porous, like primer? As for painting it over bare metal - better come back in 10 years and let us know if it works!

I am as keen on an "original" appearance as anyone, but I don't see that this necessarily means flatter/duller. Nothing compares with the deep patinated shine of cellulose or (coach paint) with years of polishing behind it. With water-based paint we apparently have the choice of dull or toffee-apple finish.

Appearance however is a side-issue to the problem of keeping our vehicles looking reasonably presentable if we cannot get the paint to do repairs. No matter how much compounding you do, the only paint that will make an invisible repair over cellulose is more cellulose.

Is the question that started this thread founded on a confirmed fact? I am a member of several clubs, as well as being an individual subscriber to the FBHVC. I have scanned the last year's FBHVC newsletters and can't find a mention of this subject. It couldn't be that this is one of those scare stories the classic press seems to start up from time to time, could it?

[Uncle Joe]

I´m enjoying this discussion! Long may it continue!

Historically, I started to laquer my own cars way back in the late ´60´s / early ´70´s. This was because at that time, the only way to get an invisible repair to (metallic) cellulose was to use something called "blend-in clear." It worked so well, that I started to use it on all paints! Later, I started to use the clear laquer that we know today.

Also historically, if my memory serves me right, and it probably doesn´t, some manufacturers experimented with what I believe were waterbased paints as far back as the mid-sixties, with disastrous results. They were painted over primer, but I remember distinct keying problems. So your thoughts about how things would look in ten years is founded, although remembering that period, two years is a more likely time span!

If we are talking sealers, then the thing is, cellulose paint is porous, and should have a sealer underneath it. This is something that most people either forget or dont believe!

What I meant by flatter / duller is just that older look that paint gets. ie not as glossy as new paint. I fully agree about the patinated sheen of classic / vintage paintwork. But dont forget, if you know how, this can appearance be faked relatively easily...

You dont have to have a dull or toffee apple finish depending on whether it is laquered or not. Anything in between is possible!

As far as whether or not this is a confirmed fact, someone else will have to answer that question.

[admin]

There's a fair bit of discussion about the disappearance of cellulose in magazines and on forums such as the Practical Classics one, so yes I think it is a fact .. I think sales end next year, and supplies can be used til the end of the year, or something along those lines (don't quote me, this is just from memory)

Rick

[admin]

Some links about this story:

http://www.practicalclassics.co.uk/forums/thread.ehtml?i=1229687833
http://www.practicalclassics.co.uk/forums/thread.ehtml?i=1944755213

Rick.

[Uncle Joe]

I just had a look at the links. One thing does seem saddening after reading them. The amount of people that are critisising WBP without knowing a thing about them!

I´m not saying that I know everything about WBP, but at least my opinions are based on a personal experience. Though I still have the odd reservation, on the whole, it is a positive opinion!

[Castellated nut]

So we only have till the end of the year to stock up, and it will be illegal to use the stuff from 2008. Better hope the neighbours don't notice the smell!

Rather than mess with water-based paint, I would rather get some decent brushes and some coach paint - I'll just have to live with a few brush-marks. That is, assuming "they" don't ban coach paint as well!

I am old enough to remember when running an old car was fun. Now it is just EU Directive after EU Directive, and more and more hassle. We seem to be surviving the loss of leaded petrol, and even the loss of asbestos braking materials (as long as you remember to allow twice the braking distance!), but where will it end?

[Uncle Joe]

Judging from some of the topics on this forum, it looks like I am going to have to come out of retirement and run some courses. Coach Painting, Ash Framing, Stopping-without-asbestos-in-the-same-distance... the list looks like it could become endless... thank you Brussels!

All we need now are some Philadelphia lawyers to find the loopholes!

[buzzy bee]

Sounds good to me, let me know when the courses start!!

[Uncle Joe]

I´ll do that!

All I need then is for Rivet to teach me the black art of teaching!

[Castellated nut]

It turns out I must have had my head buried in the sand for the last 3 years, because that is how long the consultation on EU Directive 2004/42/CE (on Volatile Organic Compounds) has been going on!

There is quite a lot of information on the subject on the FBHVC web site (www.fbhvc.co.uk) and apparently the situation is not quite as bleak as it appeared. There is a "derogation" thanks to the FBHVC and FIVA, and I quote:-

-----------
Article 3(3) of the Directive says:
For purposes of restoration and maintenance of buildings and vintage vehicles designated by competent authorities as being of particular historical and cultural value, Member States may grant individual licenses for the sale of and purchase in strictly limited quantities of products which do not meet the VOC limit values laid down in Annex II.

FBHVC has prepared a draft paper which is being considered for practicality by one of the (very few) manufacturers who will continue to make such non-compliant products as cellulose paint and by the British Coatings Federation and will be submitting a proposal to DEFRA in due course.
-----------

So cellulose paint and coach paint(which it turns out is also "non-compliant") may still be available, though much harder to get (already a 60 mile round trip for me!) and I hate to think what it will cost. Shall we start a thread on the "cultural value" of Austin Allegros?!

An update is due from the FBHVC shortly, so if there is anything new I will add it to this thread.

[Castellated nut]

The latest news from the FBHVC is that although DEFRA (the government department involved) has agreed to the derogation which will allow limited sales of cellulose (and other "non-compliant" paints) to continue, due to time constraints the Directive will become UK law on 1st Jan '07 without the derogation in place. This means there will be a period of a few months in the new year when it will not be possible for manufacturers to sell non-compliant materials.

There will be a consultation on how the derogation will be implemented, and the new regulations should be published early in 2007. However, if you are planning to do any cellulose paint repairs next year, it obviously would be a Very Good Thing to stock up with the materials now!!

[buzzy bee]

Cellulose paints tend to seperate over time so if you are to stock up and are using none base colours then make sure you turn or shake the paint on a regular basis!

Cheers

Dave

[Uncle Joe]

Later on today and tomorrow, we will be spraying the whole car. If the chance arrives, I will see if we can find something to do a touch up on, and let you all know how things go.

One very strange problem has already turned up, very strange indeed! I spoke to my friend last night, and he told me that on one of the test pieces that we had masked, the paint had managed to soak through the masking tape. Making it almost impossible to remove! That, I do not like!

Of course, it could be said that it was our own fault for leaving the tape on far too long. Or?