Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[Uncle Joe]

We have now refinished a complete car with WBP. So here are my thoughts based only on this.

We used a 1.2mm tip, 3 bars of pressure, and a booth temperature of 21C. The only difference here is that with cellulose, we would normally use a 1.4mm tip.

From previously, we knew that the coats had to be light, with the first coat very light, with as little overlap as possible. Subsequent coats were still light, but heavier than the first. We left "a cup of coffee" between coats, ie 30 minutes to an hour! The first few coats had a "spotty" appearance, but this went as soon as the colour built up. I cant remember the number of coats, but by the time we had used about 4 litres of paint, we considered that the job was completed. Remember, that we sprayed a full size US car.

I think that there are some advantages to WBP. The smell is low enough not to upset the neighbours. It seems to flow better than cellulose, and therefore it is easier to get a good finish. We will polish the paintwork later, but I think that this will take less time than usual due to the smoother finish. We used less paint than usual, and no thinners were needed. Therfore, it is more economical. Time spent is difficult to comment about. We spent more time with the coffee cup, and spending pennies than we did spraying, so the whole job was very relaxed! I found it a lot less stressful than usual. No panic caused by flash times!

Finally, I´m going to go out on a limb with a thought. It seems that as WBP needs time to dry, then a respray can be done over a couple of days or more, ie two or three evenings. Could this be a major advantage for an amateur?

[Castellated nut]

Glad you have had a successful WBP respray, Uncle Joe! However from your notes it is clear you are either a professional or an exceptionally well equipped amateur! I'm afraid I am even more sceptical than before about the possibilities of WBP for the rest of us.

As far as I am concerned, longer drying times mean a) more and longer runs, and b) a finish covered in insects, dust, dandelion seeds and any other air-borne detritus you can think of. Few, if any, of us mere mortals can resort to a heated booth - in fact all the spraying I have done in the past 5 years has, perforce, been carried out in the open air! It is also clear that my clapped-out, and low pressure equipment will NOT be up to the job.

I'm going to have to do some spraying next year, so I reckon I'll have to stock up with the materials ASAP.

[Uncle Joe]

I'm actually retired! My collection of tools and equipment has been built up over 40-odd years, so that, combined with the fact that I am a tool freak is the reason I am well equipped! Over that period, I have obviously got to know quite a lot of professionals, and in quite a few different countries to boot!

The longer drying times and so on of WBP dont bother me. I suspect that a similar system to say Belgium might develop. There, it is possible to rent spray booths, which is a brilliant idea! There is one thing however, that does.

A while ago, I found out that a large paint manufacturer had developed a wipe on galvanising agent. This struck me as being a good idea for those of us that are restoring cars. If it works, then my reasoning says that we should be able to derust a panel, wipe on the galvaniser, and then leave it as long as we want before respraying. My guess is that (though I dont know) this will not be compatible with WBP's! Just the thought of being able to galvanise a surface is great!

I did find another couple of products as well. One was a primer that kills slight surface rust, and another was a water resistant primer to lay over this. I believe that these two products meet the BMS 10-11 standard, but I am going to check into this. Also, the manufacture states that this product is a system that meets VOC levels worldwide. And it isn't water based!

Hope everyone can understand my ramblings!

[moggiedriver]

According my cars national club FBHVC representative talks are in progress to ensure that bona-fide classic enthusiasts can obtain solvent-based paints in the same manner that railway and traction engine enthusiasts can still obtain real white and red lead oxide coatings.
Check with your marque clubs for ongoing details.

[buzzy bee]

Sounds interesting and worth looking into!

Cheers

Dave

[Uncle Joe]

Yes, it does. But I do have one question to everyone. Why are you all so negative about WBP's? Especially when you haven't tried them?

In the foreseeable future, I will be respraying my project car. Which paint system will I use? I haven't a clue! Does that worry me? No! Why? Because irrespective of whether or not high VOC paints are banned, there are viable alternatives.

If the only reason that someone is negative to new products is the fact that they weren't used originally then I can say this. Its better to have a classic vehicle on the road using new technology, than having one that is stuck in the garage because you cant use old.

But of course, to each his (or her)own!

[buzzy bee]

I agree, but if you can get the orriginal stuff, it may be worth while looking into it. I am not really into painting and have never done any yet so I am deffinateley not the person to listen to on this topic!

[Uncle Joe]

If original stuff is available, then I wouldnt have any problem using it myself. Then a thought that passed through my mind. How many serious resorers, amateur or professional would paint a car today using Dulux? None, I would think. But how many know that Dulux was originally a DuPont trade name for automotive coachpaint?

The EU recognised that low VOC paints would present a problem to the car refinishing industry, and therefore o 21/04/04 passed directive 2004/42/CE, the Paint Products Directive. If I understand this directive correctly, then there is no threshold for VOC emissions from small users. Therefore, when the directive comes into force on 01/01/07, in theory, we can still use cellulose paints for restoring. I say in theory, because in this directive, the onus is shifted to the manufacturers to produce compliant products, which must be clearly marked.

The question is, are any manufacturers going to produce cellulose (ie non-compliant) paints for such a small market?

[admin]

there was an article in a recent Practical Classics, and some paint manufacturers have committed to continue production (they quoted a big outlet in Manchester, can't remember the name offhand)

Rick

[Uncle Joe]

That does sound interesting. Can you remember the manufacturers name?

I'm not sure when I will be respraying my car, but the thing that I am seriously thinking of doing is changing from my usual method, and using the galvaniser, assuming its still available. Just the thought of having a completely galvanised body is appealing! If not, then I'm going to use water based.

The trouble with this discussion is that its beginning to sound like one of the things that I dont like about the hobby. Remember the interview anecdote about the posidrive screw? What does it matter what paint is used, as long as it looks good and original? The important thing is still to get the classic on the road and used!

There was one comment that I made that no-one has picked up on. So here it is again. Years ago, Dulux was introduced as a coach paint. It could even have been used on your little Austin, Rick. But would you use it today? Maybe the same thing is going to happen with cellulose (high VOC) paints?

[admin]

Hi UJ

If you mean would I or anyone still use coachpaint, then yeah I suppose they would (assuming its still available), or were you meaning still using paint that was produced 30 years ago and sat in a tin ever since?

Rick

[moggiedriver]

Coachpaint is still available. Synthetic auto paint can be both brushed and sprayed. Using very old paint is very risky, new stock is always preferable. Today any colour can be mixed in any formulation and when it is applied you will not tell if it is new paint or original stock, anyway modern formulations are more durable than poriginal coatings (no polishing to keep the paint shiny). I think the outfit in Manchester may be H.M.G. paints, they are tooling up for classic automotive coatings and the guy working there in charge of the project is a classic car owner.

[Uncle Joe]

Rick, I wasn´t meaning 30 year old paint, I meant a product that was first produced many years ago, and is still on sale.

And yes, coachpaint is still available, the best known is Tekaloid, though there are others!

Now for a history lesson, with apologies in advance, because I know that its going to upset a lot of people!

Cellulose (actually Nitro-cellulose) paints were first developed in the early 1920’s for refinishing cars.

These were superseded by Alkyd paints in the early 1930’s. I consider this type of paint to be the first modern refinish. Around 1926, Dupont introduced what is in the UK probably the best known of these, a product with the trade name Dulux.

After WWII, first Acrylic lacquers were developed, and then later, Acrylic enamels. These types of paint were what would now be regarded as a quantum leap forward.

Later still, in the late1970’s / early 1980’s base / clear coat processes, as well as catalyst paints were introduced.

All of the above paints were spray finishes for mass produced vehicles. If we assume that a car is to be carefully restored to as original condition, then the correct type of paint, as well as application method can be deduced from the above facts.

Therefore, cellulose paint should only be used on the restoration of a pre-1930’s car, not a 1960’s one! Even this should be sprayed, not coach-painted. As far as I am aware, it was only some pre-WWII luxury cars that were brushed. This may be for some purists a hard fact to accept, but to the best of my knowledge, it’s true. At this point, I would also like to stress that I am not trying to have a go at anyone! I’m just trying to point out a few things to the best of my understanding, are historically correct.

I suspect that the reason everyone wants to use cellulose today is the fact that in the 1970´s, it was the paint that most garages used for things like crash repairs. I have first hand experience of going into a motor factor, asking for Acrylic, and being told that cellulose was the thing to use, acrylic was a thing of the past! Talk about urban myth!

To sum up, from the above, if its wrong to use a WBP system, then its just as wrong to use cellulose for most of us. So what’s the real problem with low VOC paints? Fear of the new?

[moggiedriver]

I may be wrong but I seem to remember reading something about British Leyland using WB primers in the '70s and the horrendous rust problems that unsued were due to this very coating.

Remember that water- based paint is just that, coloured sticky water until it dries and if it does not fully dry everywhere it poses a threat to your car in that will start rust wherever it is trapped against metal, especially if condensation prevents further drying. It may be that such coatings are only suitable for exposed areas and traditional coatings would still have to be used for box sections and inner wings. given that the penalty for getting this wrong is a terminally rotten bodyshell I for one do not fancy taking such a risk with this type of coating.

[Uncle Joe]

An interesting point, moggiedriver!

We have covered one of your points before on the forum. In the late 1960's, quite a few manufacturers used WBP's. Not only BL, but Ford, Volvo.

If I remember correctly, what used to happen was that the paint had adhesion problems, and used to come of in huge great flakes, exposing the primer underneath. As most primers are not waterproof, moisture then got both in and under it, with large expanses of rust being the obvious result. So, yes, water based paint did cause rust, not because it had water in it, just because at that time it was rubbish! At this point, do you realise that most new cars today use WBP's? Look at the rust guarantee that they have.

There is another thing. A couple of times, I have mentioned a wipe on galvanising agent. But as yet, no-one has really picked up on it as a rust prevention method for classic bodywork. In fact, I've never ever even heard of anyone that has used it. Is this fear again? Surely everyone knows the benefits of this type of surface treatment. Or maybe the only type of bucket that everyone has ever seen is plastic?

I totally agree with your point about a terminally rusty bodyshell if one gets it wrong, but there is only one way to avoid rust, get totally rid of it , and then protect against it from the start.

Incidentally, moggiedriver, welcome to the forum! Why not tell us a little about youself (cars)? In a new post.