Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[gresham flyer]

There are some very interesting caravans that were built well into the late 1970`s.

For over 20 years we had a lovely little caravan called a Fairholme Rosefinch,built in 1972,it was 10ft 6 inches long.

We purchased it from an elderly couple who looked after it so well it looked new.

It was one of Sam Alper`s better quality caravans.

A two berth,it served us very well. It started off as just another caravan to us,but after 15 years we started taking it to steam rallies and it became of interest to people viewing the classic cars as it was parked nearby.

So we did display it a few times along with our classic car.

I have yet to see another one.

There were more mundane caravans of the period which my father had on his hire fleet...
Aerial.
Sprite 400
Sprite Muskateer
etc

These are the type of caravans that perhaps need a bit imagination to make attractive to the younger more modern caravan owner that wants a cheap 1070`s van.

Models like the
Cheltenham.
Carlight.
Royale.
Viking.
Eccles etc

Should be left alone,they stayed attractive although their interiors became cheapened as time went by.

As for less input into the forum,there has been a drop of posting interesting restoration projects of late.

And"Rust In Peace" the caravan spotters blog has been quite of late. I did post a couple of photo`s of a barn found Bluebird caravan last month.

Perhaps Old Van Man and Young Van Man have some projects up their sleeves.

I must admit this last year has been taken up with restoring endless classic cars...good job my caravans are all finished and in good order,I just hook them up and use them.

[sheffieldcortinacentre]

as i grewup in the 70's & my obsession wih cars started then i find it stange that caravans of this period seem to be looked down on, unlike cars,vans & oher vehicles of the period which many seem to enjoy seeing & remonising about.
i have a collection of 5 1/2 mk3 & 2 mk5 cortinas & would love a period van to go with them (i have an 80's esteral folder which has just replaced my 81 rapido both seem to be lower in esteem then other vans).

pre 60 vans while fantastic looking hold little memory for me unlike sprite's,trophy's,eccle's et-al of the 70's.
i can remember seeing all of these & more while holidaying at our static in the 70/80's at chapel st leonards (on the lincs coast) my dad wouldn't tow but i often wondered where else many of them had been or would be going next.
so i can see the point being made in the earlier post.

[Brian M]

[gillberry]

[andyrr1971]

To be honest I was thinking of stapleford park and also Belvoir rallies which I went to last year, both had a number of both cheltenhams and safari caravans. I also went to a rally last weekend and again several cheltenhams and safari caravans. I feel you might be slightly missing my point, which was not that these vans shouldn't be at shows, but that a display should represent a range of models and makes and that just because they were more expensive vans originally doesn't mean they are more important or of more interest than those from cheaper brands. I do have to disagree with the comment regarding 'mundane vans'. They may be mundane to you who obviously favours the higher end brands - which there is nothing wrong with - if we all liked the same the world would be very boring! However why are they mundane? Because there were lots made, they were cheaper or because of the build quality? I personally feel they are very representative of the period (like them or not who didn't either own or know someone who did own or borrow a sprite in the 60s/ 70s? Its a bit like calling a vaccum cleaner a Hoover a caravan is to many people a Sprite). I would put money on the fact there are now barely any survivors of many early sprite models (pre 65) and other than a sprite 14 I'm yet to see a pre 72 sprite at a show despite them being massively popular in their day. As I mentioned before I do think any van on show should be in good order regardless of age and certainly more common vans and those newer ones should not be on show unless especially nice and well cared for.

[Brian M]

Andy – There are so many issues you have raised that I have to respond to. Your words in italics.

I feel its a shame such a previously active and interesting forum is not as it was, I used to love reading the regular updates on restorations and peoples new finds.

I have to admit to be guilty of not being as active recently on OCC as I have been in the past. I post details of my caravan trips on here, but more details of work done, restorations and finds, I post on my Safari forum and Facebook group as they get more reaction on there.

Kath Kidston and prettied up caravans.

Like you I prefer my classic caravan to be original, but if the current trend for modifying, results in more classic caravans being preserved, I am happy for it to continue. The astonishing prices reached for a relatively ordinary classic caravan that is now wallpapered and cushioned within an inch of its life, have encouraged a lot of newcomers to the hobby many of whom are restoring wrecks that would have disappeared were it not for this trend.

I do however have 3 caravans the oldest 53years old and the youngest 48 years old and yet I have still been told they are not old enough or the wrong brand to be classics or welcome at shows!

This is the problem of the UK having two classic caravan multi-make clubs one of which will only recognise pre-1960 caravans and seems to have a lot of influence on show organisers and manages to get post 60 classics banned from attending. Fortunately there are more and more shows that will not accept this dictate and will welcome later “classic” caravans.

My point regarding snobbery for want of a better word was relating to personal experience in regards to events and conversations I have overheard or been involved in. By no means am I trying to imply everyone has these views and if you'd received the emails and messages I did when I sold a sprite the other year you'd understand my comment.
And
There clearly are those who think anything post 1960 should be scrapped and isn't a 'real caravan' if I remember the phrase correctly. Its very sad that people feel that way.

I don’t know how this ridiculous situation can be resolved while the Club with these beliefs is allowed to manipulate the situation, and publicly rubbishes any post 1960 caravan. The Vintage and Sports Car Club only admits owners of pre-1931 and selected Post Vintage Thoroughbred sports-cars, but realises that owners of younger classics have to be encouraged in their interests, as they are the VSCC members of the future. It is a shame this philosophy does not apply in the classic caravan arena.

Also that a row of almost identical 70s safaris or cheltenhams as I have often seen at shows are not that interesting in comparison to a more varied representation of vans from the period.

The reason for there being "several" (I would suggest as few as 3 or 4 perhaps) Safaris and Cheltenhams at any show in the UK is because these are two of the makes that have active owners clubs which encourage their members to use their classic caravans and will often attend in small groups.
As I said in a previous post I started the Classic Safari Group ten years ago and we have identified over 170 Safaris still in existence, and between my forum and Facebook group have over 450 members. I would suggest this is the largest one make classic caravan group in the UK - anyone know of a larger one?
Are there active groups catering for classic Sprites, Baileys, Eccles, Knowsleys, Bessacars, etc.? that are separate from the modern owners clubs of the same make.

Your comment regarding survival rates is interesting, and is an exact reflection of the classic car market. Compare the numbers of pre-war Rolls Royce, Jaguars, Rovers, etc with the numbers of Fords, Morrises, Vauxhalls etc that are still on the road. Sure the original quality of construction has a major effect on survival, but also the more expensive the purchase, the more likely it is to be looked after when it is ten to fifteen years old, and its value at its lowest, and therefore more likely to achieve "classic" status.

I do not have a solution to this situation, but perhaps airing my feelings may start a debate between the interested parties.
_________________
Brian
1970 Volvo Amazon and 1978 Safari 15-4 Caravan
Classic Safari Forum: www.classicsafaris.co.uk

[gillberry]

Relating classic caravans to classic cars you find cars of the 70's and 80's are now readily accepted at car shows . Marinas , Allegros , Capris , Cortinas etc get all the interest as we all remember them but if you take off the rose tinted spectacles can you honestly say they were any good ?
Within classic cars the more exciting the spec the more desirable the car meaning the standard base models are overlooked and quite often don't survive . On top of this there is an intense snobbery within the classic car movement which is slowly being broken down .
If you relate this to caravans which has never been a cheap hobby then the better built , more desirable caravans survive . Yes it is good that the younger generation are getting into classic caravans through fancy wallpaper etc but the majority of classic caravans will be bought by classic car owners who want them on the back of their classic . The vast majority of classic cars are bought by people who wanted one when they were younger and so most of these cars are not the run of the mill cars which means they more than likely will not want what they percieve a run of the mill caravan on the back .
The other thing is as has been mentioned build quality particularly from the 70's was atrocious so run of the mill has even more against it for survival .
_________________
1968 Volvo Amazon estate (Gracie)
1967 Cheltenham Nyala caravan

[Dalek63]

Just to say a word about our club and post 1960's caravans. Our club welcomes any caravans made up to 1980, what ever make. We don't have a snob policy over any ones pride and joy and welcome everyone. I merely express a personal view about over-tarted up classic caravans. Our club is the Period and Classic Caravan Club. The club with the 1960 limit is the Historic Caravan Club.
_________________
I can resist anything except temptation ! ( Oscar Wilde)
"Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." ( Mark Twain)
http://www.period-classic-caravan-club.co.uk/

[andyrr1971]

Lots of interesting points made. I do have to agree totally with what Brian said. I also have to admit I overlooked the active owners clubs/ groups which people like him have worked hard to set up and run. It is logical that these groups can hugely increase the number of a certain make of van being bought, restored and used by enthusiast and as he suggests this probably explains the relatively high number in use and at shows today. Type in any old sprite, bailey model into google and there is barely any (if any at all) info on them, where as the access to the resources and support by active clubs and groups is bound to influence both seasoned and new enthusiasts when they choose a van.
The points made by gillberry are also true, most people aspire to own a classic they always wanted and so I guess the same kind of people would be tempted by the higher end vans. To me personally what interests me is the connections with memories of my childhood holidays in a 60s Sprite musketeer, hence why I have a soft spot for them. Build quality was definitely an issue (even as a sprite enthusiast I wouldn't buy a 70s one!) and I guess a major factor is also availability - today there are still a steady trickle of cheltenhams, safaris, smaller carlights, etc in decent order turning up for sale where many cheaper makes let down by poor build quality and/ or lack of interest and desirable image have long since gone. As regards Daleks comment I understand the club is supposed to welcome later vans. However my original point was as a non member and potential member you are not made to feel like you would be welcome, not just in that club, but at shows in general often by the organisers and by certain other exhibitors. I must say though I have met some lovely people at the shows however. I realise they are your personal views in this case and of course we all have an opinion, but if you post publically these strong opinions which seem to go against the policy of what you call 'your' club and underline them with the link to the club it doesn't come over as welcoming whether intentional or not and doesn't look very good on the club. I was thinking of joining and coming to the national this year, however if these opinions are universal within the club I think I might be wasting my time and money?

[old van man]

Am i missing the point ? if for instance you join a pre-war car club and want to show a morris Marina its not on is it ?
So if you join the HCC and you what to show your van on a HCC stand
it needs to be pre 1960 simple ?
If there is no HCC stand, its down to the rally events organizer if they want your van or not

Or join the PCC, no problem with the newer vans but i recommend joining a club if you intend to show as the clubs have public liability insurance,
this is a requirement for events
As for the Missing sprite 14s there about you just have to look harder
theres a mint fully restored one in the HCC , shock horror
i have owned two, there was one in a garden center on the a5 towster one in a yard near hemsby , and god knows how many festering away in peoples gardens around the country waiting to be rescued
My point just because you dont see them at a rally....
also this a forum is about quote Owning, restoring & finding a classic caravan
not a place for griping about the content , nobody wants my van,
etc , etc ,
i suppose Ive let myself in for another long winded reply , but theres more to life then the keyboard , got a caravan thats needs restoring
OVM

[Dalek63]

Andy, You seem to be going on about clubs and their attitude to you, perhaps you would get a better response if you had less " attitude" yourself. As to my opinion of post 1960's caravans, I find them as interesting and worth restoring as any 1950's caravan. I had several Sprites and they are getting rarer, several of our members have Sprites and other Alper C I models. I only have issues with getting any caravan and taking away any vestige of what its original design and function was. Transforming it from a piece of our caravanning heritage into a flim flam of tarted up rubbish to pander to a profit driven scam on trendy fashion.
_________________
I can resist anything except temptation ! ( Oscar Wilde)
"Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." ( Mark Twain)
http://www.period-classic-caravan-club.co.uk/

[andyrr1971]

OVM I actually do feel you have really missed my point which was; is it not time the HCC and certain show organisers moved the date forward to cover more recent vans as its maybe 20 years since the 1960 rule was decided and vans which were then just old vans are now 50+ years old, and is it really that bad people modifying/ personalising caravans to suit then? On another post on here several people agree that an owner should do what they want with there van. My original post if you look back was actually in response to several posts 'moaning' or passing comment on caravans, however its now me being accused of moaning and having an attitude so I shall consider myself told! My original intention of posting was to encourage discussion as regards several issues as previously explained and nothing more, you will see from other peoples responses several people have agreed or shared similar views/ experiences.
As regards the sprite 14 you will note my mention of one was it was the only early sprite I had seen at a show, you are correct in that there are several still around (2 project ones on ebay in the last year for example) and they are in fact by far the most common of the 50s sprites, while most 50s models and vans such as the early 60s musketeer, countryman and wayfarer have as good as disappeared. At the fear of being accused of another long winded reply I will end here and perhaps get on with my restoration too.