Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[chimpchoker]

Been in touch with SPL today and mentioned the activity on here and it's been passed to the M Director to see if he / she wants to contribute.

They are curently taking slots for April now so if you want to book your car in then April is the earliest.

I've decided to get my jag body done with the first part of the dip and strip then bring it home for the welding and then take it back for a re dip in the final parts of the process then get it electro plated.
It will cost another £250 + vat doing it this way but at least I then know that 1. all the new metal is rust proofed and 2. the flash rust is also gone.

What i need now is a good man or woman with a welder preferably north of Wolverampton and more preferable in the Teesside area......any recomendations please?

Alan

[buzzy bee]

Hi

I know a mate that is good at welding, he is in the south cheshire area if that is any good to you. What needs welding? Not sure how busy he is.

Cheers


Dave

[Uncle Joe]

It will be very interesting indeed to see if SPL dare to contact the forum!

UJ

[chimpchoker]

[chimpchoker]

[Uncle Joe]

Maybe I am the only sceptic about this forum. But think about these points.

I've been restoring/repairing vehicles for over 40 years. Which does give me a little experience. Whenever a 'new' process is mentioned, its always wonderful. I've seen it time and time again, more times than I care to remember! To evaluate them, one has to realise not WHAT they are saying but what they AREN'T - I learned that during my time working as a D&D Engineer. The only thing that Salesmen do is try to sell. And Salemen are every employee of every company.

Finally, something to think about: From the feedback I have as regards rust preventatives, one of the methods had no negative comments. There is a rust preventative paint on the market today based on this technology. Total cost for my Lincoln will definately not exceed £200. For SPL's method, I've seen figures of £2000. Can anyone at SPL truthfully say that their process is 10 times better?

By the way, ask them how easy it is to repair! Then you'll get some BS!

Finally, guys. Please note that these are my personal opinions. I'm not saying that they are correct, but I'm not saying that they are incorrect either! As it was pointed out to me a while ago, the point of a forum like this is to express opinions. In the end, it comes down to one thing - You pay your money, and take your choice!

UJ

[Charles]

UJ I am going to be a little more direct than Chimpchoker.

You have positioned yourself as something of an expert who has experience in rust elimination and protection. You are writing a book on restoration and have chemists who can advise you. I therefore think you have a duty when offering advice for it to at least be credible and substantiated.

You have been harping on about tests you have conducted and processes devised which will give you superb results for a small outlay, all you have told us is that you are going to sandblast and paint with 2 pack ????? Some process! And this is as good if not better than SPL’s who process you have clearly demonstrated you don’t understand;

I quote you;

Forget the newer ‘high tech’ solutions! Use tried and tested methods. They are cheaper, and are at least known to work. On another topic, I’ve seen something about a dipping process which is considered to be new. This process was first used in 1965 or so. How many cars in 1965 were known for their rust protection? In other words: THEY DO NOT WORK, and are a waste of money.
it was applied in exactly the same way at Fords Wixom plant in 1965, +/- a year.

No no no it is a very different process to what was done in 1965, Ford , GM and all the other big boys have invested millions in getting right over the last 20 years.

Is it 10 times better? Well you of all people should know that 80% of return results from 20% of investment, we all know that you could do half a good a job for a lot less money, but Chimpchoker and others want to do the best possible job, your advice is not helping anyone.

With your process you have not explained how you are going to remove rust as well as a chemical dip can in hidden box sections and seams, by sand blasting? It’s challenging enough to sandblast effectively when the rust is right in front of you, and then you will wipe with phosphoric acid, how are you going to do this at home in hidden box sections?

I think I have made my point, you are absolutely right to be sceptical, but can not creditably pass comment as a “knowledgeable person” without getting your facts right, or at least explaining your complete techniques compared to SPL’s with some unbiased appraisal.

Charles

[Uncle Joe]

My final words on this subject. I dont want to spoil this forum with a war of words!

1: I do not consider that I have set myself up as an expert. The only thing that I am guilty of is collating information from others, and reporting it. However Charles, I do consider that you have! all because you've owned some kind of garage. The biggest reason I dont use any workshops is that I have never yet found one that I can trust implicitly!

2: If you want everything substantiating, buy the book when it is published. All you need to know is in it for the budget minded restorer that wants to do the best job possible!


As I said, final comments!

[Charles]

UJ
First of all I’m sorry if you have been offended, but as you point out, I am an expert in my own field and proud of it, and when I see experts in other fields like the folk at SPL being rebuked anecdotally by a "non expert" without substance it gets my goat.... plus nobody on this forum gains anything from it, when forum members were genuinely interested in finding out more .I hope you now understand the need for some straight talking.

Moving on I will happily buy your book, when is the release date ?

Charles

[Uncle Joe]

Charles, there is no need whatsoever for you to apologise. In fact I think that it should be the other way round, and it should be me that does the apologising. I have a wee suspicion that you and I are 'two peas in a pod' in a lot of respects!

All of the book is now finished, apart from the fact that I have been let down by someone who promised rewrite the text, in order to inject a bit of humour into it. I dont want it to be just another boring book! Asssuming the text can be completed in time, the release date is at the beginning of December. Just in time for Christmas! I'll keep everyone informed!

Incidentally. Charles, you mentioned model engineering once. Are you into model Stirling engines?

UJ

[rustbuster]

Hi Chaps I'm a newbie but have several ( too many ) years experience in the rust proofing of everything from classic cars to offshore platforms. The SP finishing system would appear to have some merits as long as the process of chemical stripping phosphating to passivate the steel and the coating are appled in pretty close order.

In the protective coatings industry it is not practical to dip huge peices of engineering or even fire engines for that matter. So over the years maintenance coatings have been developed for the protection of steel in aggresive environments. These coatings have an extremely short chain molecular structure. This enables them to penetrate while still wet into the even tiny pores of pitted steelwork due to there very low surface tension.

Given the extreme conditions automobiles operate in I would prefer to use a coating that offered .

good penetration

good adhesion

High mechanical strenghth.

The preparation offered by the dipping company is no doubt good but I would like to see more in the way of a corrosion preventing coating applied to the prepared steel. This can all be achieved by blast cleaning to SA 2.5 and an application of the surface tolerant Epoxy. It would be 10 times cheaper and in my experience it will definitely last.

Nice debate
Ian

[buzzy bee]

Welcome allong Ian!

Do you have any classics?

Cheers

Dave

[Uncle Joe]

Hi Ian, and welcome to the forum. Its good to have an expert on board!

From your experience, would I be correct in assuming that a surface tolerant epoxy system would be easier to repair than SPL's process, after say a collision?

SA2,5 sounds like an extract from a Swedish Standard. Is that correct? If it is then the surface roughness is Ra12,5 mu. Roughly the same as the surface of a drilled hole, and easy enough to obtain with sandblasting at home.

In case you are wondering the reason that I mentioned the Swedish Standard, its where I live!

UJ

[Uncle Joe]

Hmmm, how quiet this topic has become now that we have an expert involved!

Dont see anyone from SPL either, so the question now is, was I correct in assuming they wouldn't dare take part in the debate? Could it be a case that they dont want to 'crash and burn'?????

OK, so I'm being provocative....

UJ

[chimpchoker]

Sarcasm, UJ is the lowest form of wit so they say. It's not at all quiet on this topic. You would rather paint your bits whilst I would rather buy into the "new technology" because although granoline etc was used in the 60's the rest of the process wasn't and is a recent inovation. Also I bet you would have kept your trap shut had the "expert" said you were wrong.

For me I'm going to do the spl treatment and if ever there was a doubt I'd still do it just out of pig headedness to get one over on you.

As for SPL not joining in then one could think along the lines that someone like you would go to the nth degree to prove even the most sublime comment wrong and then proclaim a victory.

I bet you said back in 1966 that man would never get to the moon because they hadn't done it before.

The thing is for me personal choice. I've got this jag and I spent 7 years lusting and drooling over it. I'd re route my trips into town just to see the car on the drive. I'd walk the dog in hail and snow past the front of the car and drag my fingers over the bonnet just to have an afinity with it. Thus I will be keeping this car for a long time to come.

My plans are to upgrade the braking, engine, safety and whatever else is needed to bring it into the 21st century motoring. I'm not setting a budget, if it takes a year or 3 years I'm not bothered but what I am doing is sourcing what i think is the best or me. If we are both still around in 10 years time with the same cars as we have now I bet yours will be in worse nick than mine because of your penny pinching attitude which is fine if it works for you but I don't want to spend something like £2000 on a paint job only to realise that in a couple of years rust bubbles will come through because of penny pinching attitudes to rust prevention.
you said in one comment that the spl treatment wouldn't be any good after a crash, why not? restoritive companies now offer 6 years protection and warrenty on crash repairs, well they do over here.

As for the spl treatment.......I've been told this weekend that both Audi and mercedes use the exact same treatment process in their german factories for new cars and restoritive projects whilst all of the top rally car companies such as Audi, suberu, lancia et al use the same process when they build their rally cars........
If you and your "Expert" want to choose a different method then fine. Some of us will choose different methods and be happy at paying for the service and not penny pinching.