Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[oldtimer]

Each week I read the Telegraph motoring supplement where the Auto Agony Aunt,Uncle actually,tries to advise/console persons who have spent a fortune,to me at least,on a vehicle with masses of electronic gizmos which render the vehicle unusable,unsafe or lighting up numerous warning lights for a multitude of gadgets which need not be there and have little,if anything,to do with getting from A to B.
Examples;New vehicle has DSG ? GEARBOX.Slow at roundabout or stop for a junction, wait for a suitable gap,press accelerator but nothing happens for a few seconds,long enough for the gap to disappear,before it surges forward. Answer:"Echoes my experience with DSG SYSTEMS you may be able to request upgrade!!!!"Next one: An array of warning lights coming on together,intermittently,including ABS and ESP.You have warned about a problem with the Teves ABS UNIT but am told there is a more common problem with faulty sensors" KEEP IT SIMPLE,STUPID,seems to remain the best advice in my opinion

[clan chieftain]

My sentiments entirely. A lot of nonsense in my opinion. Just to be environmental friendly. In my job I look after garage accounts. In other words I collect their money and boy are these guys getting ripped off. Some of the suppliers of sensors wont accept returns if the packet has been opened.This is to stop garages fitting the part to see if thats the fault and returning it if it isnt.
If garages dont have diagnostic equipment basically they are knackered.e.g. The Bosch KTS 200 hand held comes on about £2000 and the updates are £300 a time. a big layout and thats why customers bills are so high. Some garages take £60 a go to plug your car in, them they tell you the fault and to take the car elsewhere to gei it fixed.
I go in to garages who only do MOTs and diagnostics. Easy money and they hardly get dirty.
I run a 53 plate Mazda Premacy...great car so far but I dread to think the cost if anything goes wrong with it.
Maybe I should just run the estate as an every day motor. Even better get myself a tax exempter. A lot of people do.
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The Clan Chieftain

[oldtimer]

Hail Clan Chieftain,
Beware or we may both be branded as dinosaurs or,by some of the less charitable as a couple of tight Jocks!
While I have lived south of the Border since 1965,I confess to retaining a healthy respect for the bawbees.My daily driver is a 1968 Volvo estate which I have had since 1974.My wife has a Rover 200,"shopping trolley".
The VOLVO and I went up to Dundee last week,stayed with a chum overnight and came back to Northumberland next day,without benefit of any gizmos,electronic sensors,etc.

[Rick]

I was reading elsewhere about fog lights on some modern cars that turn on and off as you turn a corner, the idea being that the n/s or o/s light flicks on to help illuminate the road better during a tight turn Not one I'd heard of before, as I rarely read about modern over-complicated tin, it sounds like a pretty useless and distracting annoyance for anyone else driving nearby.

I think by the 1990s the modern car got about as good as it could get, in doing its core job of moving people from A to B reliably and in comfort. Much of what has gone on since has simply over-complicated things to huge degree, while not really improving the core function of what a car should do. Ok safety aspects have probably improved, but to me cars have just grown fat, over-complicated, over-weight, and stupidly expensive to fix.

RJ
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[RobMoore]

I got rid of my modern last year, Jethro is my daily driver now and if I am brutally honest, the only thing I miss having in a car is a clock. I have fitted an stereo but rarely turn it on.
Rick is spot on, since the 902 and possibly even earlier cars are just over engineered.
most of the gizzmos these days actually take the enjoyment of driving away and you can al but get from AtoB on auto pilot now.

[Dirty Habit]

I wonder if there would be a market for a KISS car? Are there enough of us dinosaurs to buy them and as we are not going to see many more summers, what would our kids do with it when we have gone?
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1964 International Harvester

[clan chieftain]

Is that the upmarket version of a SNOGGOMOBILE
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The Clan Chieftain

[bob2]

Rick's right on this one, I've got a 1995 daily driver a hyundai accent and think its comfortable and not that bad on fuel + it does not have any stupid ecu and sensors for this and that, more modern cars are too complicated and too expensive to fix.
I have kept it so long (since 2002 just because its like an old car, relatively easy to fix and the parts are very cheap).
hopefully it will be good for another 10+ years then we'll see!!

[ukdave2002]

I’m probably in the minority with my view! but here it is!

The company I work for has a mobile field force of about 2000 staff driving company vehicles, 20 years ago we had about 500 vehicles.

A typical car 20 years ago cost us £12k, needed servicing every 9,000 miles at around £120 a service including a hire car.
Today the average car costs us £18k (probably about £9k equivalent in 1990 prices) servicing is generally now oil only every 20,000 miles with a service every 40,000 miles, still about an average of £120 (£60 in 1990 prices). The cars we buy now are much higher spec than their 1990 counterparts, safer and return a higher mpg, breakdowns these days are virtually nonexistent. We used to change cars at 80,000 miles now it’s 150,000. We also have less people in our fleet department managing 2000 cars than we did managing 500 20 years ago.

In pure financial terms and removing fixed costs such as fuel and insurance , our vehicle purchase & operating costs are down by 28% compared to 20 years ago, with a lot less hassle. There will always be a rogue modern car or a lemon, but then there always was, I really feel folk are looking through rose tinted glasses if you think cars of yesteryear were more reliable or cost less to run?

Whether we like the changes in technology I guess is personal; would I preferer to see an ECU and a pile of sensors being rebuilt or an SU carb? The carb would of course win , as in my opinion its got some soul , but if I have a 300 mile round trip for a meeting; I want to get in the car, with all the gadgets like sat nav, air con etc without having to think about the car! Same journey in the Stag and I’d be constantly looking at the oil pressure, temperature gauge, listing for odd noises! What car do I prefer driving; the Stag!

In terms of fixing modern cars we have to accept it’s a different engineering skill and part of the problem I believe is that the motor repair industry generally recruits staff who have a mechanical aptitude rather than those with an electronic background, as such garages are forced to rely on expensive diagnostic equipment and substitution as a means of proving or rectifying faults, these overheads and potentially inefficient ways of working have commercial impacts i.e bigger bills when things go wrong . There is nothing new about electronic maintenance, it’s been going on for decades in other industries, it’s just not a skill that is so easily understood, probably carries the same reservations as the internal combustion engine did by blacksmiths a 100 years ago.

I must admit I thought that the interest in classic cars would end in cars of the 80’s, but pick up a copy of PC and it regularly features cars of the 90’s and later, maybe the next generation of classic car enthusiast will be different to us in embracing modern technology, and in 20 years time this forum will post questions on air mass meters , DSG and the rest!.


Dave

[Peter_L]

I originally posted the lower part of this in January 2011.

As I try to explain, I have mixed emotions about the new technology.
I agree with what Dave says above... Maintenance time per 100kms, is far less than it used to be. The downside is, new cars are virtually unrepairable for the average DIY.

But if we turn the clock backwards.

Did the windscreen wiper bring with it the complication of electrics, compounded by the addition of a wiper for the passenger, then selfparking and multispeed/intermittent.

We could get from A to B, by jiggling the throttle and timing levers on the steering column and then swinging the starting handle.
Was the pleasure of arriving at point B enhanced by the fact we could now just press a button from the comfort of the driving seat.

Let's face it, we have to walk fairly close to the front in order to get in the car, was another 5 ft and a little bit of exertion worth the cost of even more electrical paraph- paraff- (stuff)..

Were the benefits created by, greater than the stress caused, from the addition of that insiduous little capacitor, with a mind of its own and a reluctance to reveal just how the heck it works, while enjoying an assembly sequence of washers and wires that seek to trip up everyone at some point.

Do we really need all those cones and sleeves whirling away in the gearbox when a well timed left foot can achieve the same result.

Oldtimer asks ........ do we need all this technology ?

maybe not, as I trot off to chisel this reply onto a lump of stone.

From January 2011... I wrote

Our most recent addition to the garage is a Ford Edge.

I believe that I am of an age and mentality to be able to own one. After over 1.5 million (own fault, accident free miles) I perhaps have little more to learn except attempting to second guess the actions of others.

However..... I drive it with mixed emotions and a little bit of apprehension as to where motor vehicles are going. The thing will not trust me to turn the lights on or off when I need them, or leave the key in the key place. ignitions switches have vanished. If I try and tailgate the guy in front I get a firm rebuke and if I am in cruise it applies the brakes. I can't reverse over the grandkids bike, or the grandkids if it comes to that, because it shows me what is behind and screams if there is something in the way.

It is difficult to cut in front of someone in the outside lane, because it watches the rear quarters.

If it is sick, needs an oil change, brake change, or has a soft tire, I get a reminder. I can't alter the seat position whilst on the road because the seat-pedal-steering-mirrors are all adjusted by the computer, who knows it is me and not someone else driving the car.

I can't smoke the tires, because the traction control doesn't allow it and even the fiercest braking only produces skid marks in the underwear, because the computer looks after the wheels.

I could try and lift the front or rear wheel on a sharp turn, if only it wouldn't send a message to the suspension and engine.

I don't need not to ask for directions because it knows where I am, where I am going and if I have enough petrol/gas to get there.

If it is warm outside, it lets me know exactly what the temp is in F and C
and when the snow is deep and crisp and even and there is ice on the pumpkins it also tells me that it is cold outside.

I can start it stop it, from anywhere my cell phone will work and when the screen , mirrors and rear glass get a little chilly it warms them up again.
When it rains it will clear the windshield and move the wipers a little quicker once I speed up.

My voice will command it to play any combination of music or phone the psychiatrist, . However I don't have to phone the psychiatrist very often, because my appointments are in the calendar along with birthdays and anniversaries, followed by the command to find flower shops and provide directions. Once I arrive it will park neatly parallel to the kerb.


So.. love it or hate it ? ....... Ok... I love it, but then I loved my Mini Van, my Mayflower my Anglia and my Escort - Cortina - Granada - Senator - Transit - Elan.

Will our grandkids be able to drive my old , pump the brakes twice to stop Mini or the double de clutch into 1st Anglia. Will they be able to fling a 6 cyl Senator down the lanes between Chatsworth and Ashbourne, braking hard for the tight corners, heeling the throttle and dropping from 5th to 2nd before exiting in much haste...... maybe not.

But then I never got the hang of putting the nosebag on the horse either..

[Roger-hatchy]

Thanks Peter that has lightened my day

[Rick]