Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[buzzy bee]

Hi

http://freespace.virgin.net/tommy.sandham/leading.htm

I have been reading a little about lead loading/body soldering tonight, UJ will be impressed! I found the above site very good, simple to understand but very informative!!

Cheers

Dave

[Uncle Joe]

I did know about Tommy's site, but didn't recommend it to you, simply because I promised to show you how in person. I still will, and let you know some dates when I have them!

Though there is nothing wrong with the way he does it, I will show you a couple of minor differences that should avoid beginners problems. Also, I did notice that there was no mention of lead-free solder.

[buzzy bee]

Just was bored last night so instead of turning to ebay, to find something to spend my money on, started looking at body soldering, it seems quite intersesting!

Cheers

Dave

[UKdave2002]

Just seen this post whilst browsing through the site. I lead load when possible, it’s a very satisfying job to do and not as difficult as people make out.
Had a look at the article, couple of points;
What he refers to a flux is actually “solder paste” which contains both flux and solders so you can “tin” in one action.
You can use a flux on its own (like bakers fluid) to clean the metal, but will then have to tin with solder.

Body solder is different to plumbers solder, body solder has a higher proportion of tin to lead, which means its easer to keep it in the “buttery” consistency and hence easer to shape.

He refers to moleskin’s , real moleskins used to be used by plumbers to “smooth” the joints on lead pipes (done just before the solder sets) , a mole unlike a cat or dog hair can be brushed in any direction, so you are guaranteed to smooth the joint. Today you can purchase imitation moleskins from bodyshop suppliers.

Regarding lead free solder; there has been a change over the last few years mainly driven by new waste regs (WEE) which are about not putting lead in to the ground when electrical equipment is disposed off, and health regs; we have not had lead water pipes for years and now plumbers don’t solder copper pipes with lead based solders anymore.

There have been some lead free body solders based on copper / zinc / tin, I had some lead free body solder samples sent a couple of years ago and found it far more difficult to control than traditional 30% tin/ 70% lead, the melting point is higher so you have to keep a lot more heat going in, also the temperature range at which it could be used was smaller, resulting in the stuff suddenly melting, the higher temperatures also tend to burn the wooden paddles, so we resorted to making some stainless steel ones. You need a slightly different technique, but can be used, I suspect eventually there will better versions.

As I understand it the currently various new regs will not ban the use of traditional tin /lead solder in the automotive trades. As far as using it from a heath perspective the biggest danger in sanding it, getting fine lead particles into the air, so never use power sanders unless you have adequate protection (air fed).

Preparation aside if you can butter bread you are 80% of the way to being able to body solder, the thing you need to practice is keeping the solder just at the right temperature (like soft butter), practice on horizontal metal .

Final tip don’t do what I did and keep the tallow in an old shed, when I last came to use it there was none left ! the local mouse population had been feeding on it!!

Cheers Dave

[Uncle Joe]

I agree with your comments, apart from one. Though he recommended temperature range for using unleaded solder is higher, it does cover about the same usable range as leaded, ie about a 70C difference. (leaded 185-255C, unleaded 280-350C)

One other point about unleaded is that it is about 50% stronger as well.

I have been having thoughts though that unleaded could be used for applications other than the traditional ones.

Any comments UK?

UJ

[UKdave2002]

Hi UJ

The lead free stuff I had, had a much higher melting temperature, the solder you have sounds much more useable. I just hope there is a standard agreed otherwise it will be awkward to work with if different suppliers have varying specs.

As for other uses I’ve used it to fix hooks on things like funnels, and when I was a poor student and the first rule when fixing your car meant spending no money!, I did things like repairing the head gasket by soldering in bits of copper packing material “borrowed” from the engineering department, best of all was a “temporary” fix on some very warn rocker shaft bearings, I lined them with solder and then reamed out! Both repair lasted the rest of the time I owned the car.

Don’t suppose anyone will buy a car from me now!! what uses did you have in mind?

Cheers Dave

[Uncle Joe]

Hi UK,

What I've been thinking about doing is using it to tin both seams before spot welding. My thinking is that the welding heat will melt the solder enough to 'seal' the seam. Obviously, no tinning of the spots!

Comments?

[UKdave2002]

Hi UJ
Can see your thinking, I have sealed exposed seams up after welding with both braze and solder, if you are going to do this you can't use weld through primer (which I don’t trust anyway!) . When I soldered them I just used plumbers flux and coil of solder (easier than using a stick of solder) and you can get it from B&Q.
The problem with tinning it first would be ensuring the welded area is kept clean you can't afford any flux solder or braze for that matter on the area to be welded, as you start spot welding it would be difficult to guarantee that the tinning wouldn’t spread on to an area to be welded.

If you do it after welding as long as the joint is clean, solder will run into the joint by capillary action. I always do this when putting for example a repair pannel on the bottom of doors, people often don’t seal the inside of the join properly, doors will always be subject to condensation on the inside, and water eventually finds its way into the joint.

I have done some small non structural repairs just be soldered in which case your idea would be excellent.
Incidently my father in law is in the bodyshop business they have glues these days for repairing stuff that would once have been welded !

Dave

[Uncle Joe]

Hi UK, I agree with you about Weld Through primer, I dont trust it myself.

I do have a couple of ideas as to how I can stop the solder flowing onto the weld, when I get the chance, I will try them.

Judging from your post, you are as pedantic as I am!

UJ