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1926 Dodge Brothers Tourer (split)
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3199
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:29 pm    Post subject: 1926 Dodge Brothers Tourer (split) Reply with quote

Hello everyone. I am new to the forum although I have been corresponding with Rick over the last two years because we both own vintage Dodge Brothers touring cars. I was fortunate to be given my Dodge by the widow of a friend who sadly died. When I got the car it looked quite good but needed a lot of work to get it going but it's now out and about when the weather permits. I call my Dodge 'Gilbert' after it's previous owner. It is a 1926, 116" wheelbase, with a 4 cylinder side valve engine of about 3 1/2 litres. Unlike Rick's car (which is a 1924 version) with 12 volts and a combined starter dynamo, my car is a 6 volt with separate starter and dynamo. Our cars are both (unexpectedly) right hand drive because they were originally exported from Detroit USA to the Antipodes where they were bodied by local coachbuilders. The Dodge has a very solid feel with lots of torque in stark contrast to my other car which is a 1930 Austin Swallow that I have owned and restored over the past 30 years. The Swallow is very small by comparison but is quite exquisite in terms of style. I am always happy to talk about old cars until the cows come home.

Last edited by Ray White on Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 20851
Location: North-west UK

PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that's the first time I've seen a photo of the Swallow, what a fab little car Cool One day I'll chase up a contact who, reportedly, has a Swallow tourer sat in a warehouse. Good to see the Dodge here too Smile

RJ
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Rick (OCC Admin)
Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
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QuentinA



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 8
Location: Brittany, France.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome Ray,

You have two beautiful cars, I'm a fan of swallow! Very Happy

I offer you a picture of a 1926 dodge that belonged to someone of my club.

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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3199
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your kind words and warm welcome, Quentin. It's always nice to see another Dodge. You can compare and contrast. Look at the windscreen on your friend's car. You will see that it is the same in the corners as Rick's car. That is correct. Unfortunately my car has the wrong screen. It doesn't follow the line of the scuttle and leaves a gap. Not a big problem but finding a good replacement is going to be a challenge. The one on ebay at the moment is in pretty poor shape and shipping costs are a consideration. Another nice feature seen in your photo is how the owner has tackled the flashing indicator question; using what looks like another pair of cowl lamps. A nice touch which I had not thought of.
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 20851
Location: North-west UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Ray says, good to see another vintage Dodge. Is the mascot from a late-30s Dodge truck?

RJ
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Rick (OCC Admin)
Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 20851
Location: North-west UK

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS the Austin deserved its own thread, which has now been created using existing posts, in the Austin category: http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/forum/phpbb/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16686

RJ Smile
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Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3199
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for doing that with the posts, Rick.

I read somewhere you are thinking of changing the cylinder head?
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Rick
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Location: North-west UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray White wrote:
Thanks for doing that with the posts, Rick.

I read somewhere you are thinking of changing the cylinder head?


That's on "big" Dodge, aka the Jolly Green Giant, ie the truck, not on the tourer.

RJ
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Rick (OCC Admin)
Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3199
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After a successful Wollaton I decided to finally sort out the annoying and unidentified knock coming from the engine so the '26 Dodge Brothers tourer is in my garage undergoing various tests. I have no service history with the Dodge, but at 90,000 I imagine the engine must have been overhauled at some time because it doesn't smoke or burn oil and a compression test showed 50 psi on all four cylinders. It may sound low but it accords with my workshop manual specifications and there is no loss of power from the original 3.5 litre side valve engine. I will explain what I have done so far.

The first thing I did was to check if the noise was coming from something external or obvious then I removed the plugs to eliminate touching electrodes. There may be a foreign body in one of the cylinders but that will have to wait until I remove the head. If there was a big end or main bearing knock, it should be fairly obvious. Fortunately, when I placed my ear close to the sump, all was quiet. There is still the possibility of a noisy gudgeon pin but one step at a time.

Oil pressure is good but I did wonder about camshaft end float. I also considered the possibility of a previous rebuild where new piston rings, or even pistons and rings could have been fitted without a rebore. I have seen an engine where the top piston rings have been clouting the ridge left by the old rings. In the past I have fitted stepped rings but I haven't seen them in years. Alternatively, the ridge can be filed down. If nothing has been done to the block, a noticeable tapping sound would result. Probably a broken ring would result.

Another possible source of the knock would be if a timing gear is chipped. Depending on which gear had been chipped the knock would sound either once or twice per crank rotation. These are just theories at the moment. Practical diagnosis is required.

At first I thought I had found it when I was setting the tappets. I noticed a slightly loose spring on No. 1 exhaust valve and while it was at rest I was able to move it from side to side and it made a clicking sound. However with the engine running, I used a large screwdriver to pry the top of the spring, but increasing it's tension made no difference. Different valve clearances also made no difference to the knock and using an improvised stethoscope I began to realise that the noise wasn't coming from the valve train. It seemed to come from the head area.

With the aid of a timing light attached to a 12 volt battery (the Dodge is 6 volts) I connected up to lead No.1. Then I made a white mark on the pulley (fan belt removed) and started the engine. After several attempts I was able to synchronise the light with the mark at the same time as the knock. With the pulley turning at crankshaft speed (according to my manual) I assume the problem could be with the piston in No.1 cylinder on the firing stroke.

The original No.1 exhaust valve theory must presumably be abandoned because it (and the inlet valve) would be closed under tension for combustion.

That is where I am at the moment. Any comments or advice would be welcome.
Thank you.
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PAUL BEAUMONT



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 1278
Location: Barnsley S. Yorks

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ray, I am not sure what type of noise is occurring as some of the scenarios that you suggest would not create a noise that I would describe as a knock. I had an engine knock on my Jowett the other year which I thought was a big end, but I removed the heads and could feel no end movement as I rocked the engine over TDC. Eventually I suffered a dramatic engine failure when one rod detached its self from the crank pin. On dismantling, the big end had lost or broken one of the bolts. Sadly some scumbag stole the engine for scrap before I could investigate what lay in the sump. I presume that the bolt had been working itself loose but only showed up when the engine was loaded. Could be worthwhile dropping your sump to check all your Big ends are tight?
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3199
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Paul. Your experience with the Jowett shows that there are situations when a failing big end can show up under load when everyone says it's only on the over run.!

I can't bear it when ignorant people steal metal for scrap. I'm sure they have no idea how hurtful it can be. It reminds me of the idiots who rip down bronze war memorial plaques or strip lead from the Church roof. You have my sympathies.

It would be helpful for me to know what scenarios I have suggested that you wouldn't think make a knocking noise. Help to narrow it down a bit.

I am about to take the head off and if there is nothing obviously wrong, I will check the big end bearings.

I am ready with the Plastigauge !
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3199
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taking advise from an old hand (several old hands, actually) I ran the engine then removed the lead from No. 1 plug. The tapping sound went away. So it looks like I will have to investigate piston & rod No.1.

I just hope it can be fixed without too much expense Shocked
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3199
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These engines have no specific oil drain plug in the sump. To drain the oil, one of the bolts holding the external pipework is removed. The oil supply pipe is then disconnected where it joins the union with the block. A heavy cast flywheel cover is then unbolted and removed; the sump bolts can then be unscrewed and the sump removed.

This is a "C" engine with 5 main bearings. It would seem to have been rebuilt in recent times; looking up into the innards the pistons appear to be like new. The camshaft, too, is completely un marked as are the bores.

One matter for concern was that I noted how one of the big end caps had been fitted the wrong way round. These engines do not have pressure feed to the bearings. Instead, the oil is pumped into a gallery above the camshaft and exits through a series of small holes. It is vital, then, that the receiving holes drilled in one side of the big end caps are positioned so that they collect as much oil as possible.

What became obvious immediately was the amount of play in the No.1 big end bearing. It was pretty obvious that the knock was, at least in part, coming from far too much lateral movement in this bearing. Removal of the split pins from the castellated nuts permitted the nuts to be removed and a surprise find. The big end bearings had been converted to shells.

Quite unusual was the retention of shims. Dodge provided shims as a means of "taking up" the original white metal bearings and these shells appear to have enough white metal on them to permit the same. These caps have no tang to secure them; rather, the edge of the shims hold the shells in place. The micrometer reading showed no wear at all on the journal and there were no marks or scoring, which was a relief.

Plastigauge gave a reading of 0.0035" on No.1 big end bearing which is a bit too much for a 1.560" journal. Ideally it would be between 0.001" and 0.002". I removed 0.001" from each shim and confirmed a new clearance of 0.0015". I cleaned up and reassembled with engineers blue. The high spots were removed by scraping and the bearing oiled and reassembled. I then repeated the process with No. 2. big end.

The big end bolts could do with replacing and I have yet to find a supplier of suitable HT shoulder bolts.

This is a work in progress. Getting the right 'feel' of the crankshaft turning over on the handle makes this a slow job.
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3199
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seemed to me that there was oil starvation to No.1 con rod and main bearing. Both have been taken up by removing material from the shims and scraping the bearing as required.

To gain access to the end of the oil gallery it was necessary to support the front of the engine so that the front engine mounting could be removed. On these cars, the crank handle passes through the engine mounting. It was then possible to remove the timing cover from the engine and distributor drive gear housing. The camshaft timing gear has been replaced at some time with a fibre gear. This is an interference fit onto the camshaft but is bolted onto a boss behind it. The gear came away quite easily.

When the nozzle was removed from the end of the oil gallery, the blockage consisted of a small collection of what looked like short bristles. The gallery is now clear and reassembly can begin.
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3199
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that I forgot to do was slacken off all the tappets so that there was less load on the camshaft. As a result when I removed the camshaft timing gear, the cam moved and I lost the valve timing. This would not normally be a problem but on this engine there were no marks on the crankshaft timing gear; fortunately I had made my own marks. As it happened, I had to remove the cylinder head to check out No.1 piston and cylinder. The pistons had been replaced with modern replacements and there was nothing wrong with them. The gudgeon pin was of the modern type retained by cir clips. I thought I had found the source of the knock when I noticed some damage to the bore of No. 1 but this must have been historic damage caused by failure of the old type gudgeon pin. The rings would have no difficulty in passing over these little dents and would not have caused a knock.

Reassembly would have been straightforward with the valve timing now set but there were problems with tightening down the head. The centre stud pulled out. The stud was 12m one end and 3/8" the other. The threads were sound so I was able to tap out the block M12 and put the stud in the other way up with loctite.
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