Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
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peppiB
Joined: 30 Jun 2008 Posts: 686 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
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Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:58 pm Post subject: Mercedes 230TE snapped camshaft |
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Friend (the same one who has the problematic Daimler Double Six) also owns this 1991 Merc 230 TE. 2 weeks ago he had a local garage fit a new head gasket. Last week he took the car to Scotland and did about 300 miles. Saturday, in the city centre, it came to a halt and had to be recovered to the same garage that fitted the cylinder head gasket. Today they discovered the camshaft had snapped. Very odd. Friend knows precisely nothing about cars or engines, but told me this afternoon that whilst away the engine was making a funny noise, but he drove on anyway.
My theory is that during replacement of the head gasket a piece of crud fell unnoticed into an oil way, and on running the engine worked its way to a narrower pipe, restricting oil flow to both the hydraulic tappets and the camshaft bearings. The bearings overheated, seized onto the shaft and it snapped. I suspect there is further major damage in the block with both the big ends and mains suffering abnormal wear due to reduced oil pressure. Most economical solution is to fit a secondhand replacement engine. However, what, if any, responsibility would the garage who fitted the gasket have for the subsequent engine failure? had he known what the engine noise was (probably screaming tappets) and not driven there may have been no failure and resulting damage. Any ideas or suggestions? He has to go into the garage tomorrow (Tues 19th) to try and sort something. |
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Peter_L
Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 2680 Location: New Brunswick. Canada.
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Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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My opinion it falls in to the category of "sh 1 t happens".
I can't see anyway that the garage could be held responsible, but they may have morals and offer to help out with labour.
Maybe a modern is more suited to your friend. |
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peppiB
Joined: 30 Jun 2008 Posts: 686 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
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Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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peterwpg wrote: |
Maybe a modern is more suited to your friend. |
Na - he had a brand new Jag when I first met him. It was broken down, of course, and no one could seem to fix it. No it didn't have a guarantee as it was a cat X write off - new stock in a garage had been flooded and it was one of those.
Thanks for the opinion - same as mine but just thought I would check |
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MikeEdwards
Joined: 25 May 2011 Posts: 2502 Location: South Cheshire
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Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:24 am Post subject: |
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The difficulty would be proving it. Your scenario might be correct, but even if your friend invested the money in establishing that something was blocking an oilway, there's no way to prove that it was done when the garage did the job, or even as an unintended consequence of disturbing the top of the engine for the rebuild. If he hadn't had the job done, the same may well have happened.
That is the beauty of a modern car with a warranty on it - he wouldn't care how or what had happened, just send it in for repair and don't see the bill. But by 'modern' I think Peter meant 'new with warranty' rather than 'new with many potential problems, all of which will be hard to trace and paid for by the owner'. As I recall, certain recent models of Jaguar were thought to have iffy enough electrics without being flood damaged. |
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peppiB
Joined: 30 Jun 2008 Posts: 686 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
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Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Mike. He is currently searching for a replacement engine (Parts Gateway)
His wife tells me that no matter what car he has, there are problems. The least trouble has been with this Merc, which I advised him to buy 5 years ago and this is the first issue he has had, and a Moggy Traveller to which I supplied and fitted a replacement engine over 5 years ago and has given faithful service since. His Daimler (1982) sits in a garage with an electrical problem which the garage are scratching their heads over, and he has a 1986 Rolls Silver Spirit which regularly breaks down!
Thankfully he has listened and is not going to waste money trying to repair this Merc engine |
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Peter_L
Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 2680 Location: New Brunswick. Canada.
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Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Quote Mike "But by 'modern' I think Peter meant 'new with warranty' rather than 'new with many potential problems, all of which will be hard to trace and paid for by the owner'. As I recall, certain recent models of Jaguar were thought to have iffy enough electrics without being flood damaged."
Correct Mike
and flood damaged. It should have either gone to someone who could handle it. (The electrics alone would be a nightmare) or donated for spares.
Terms "new" and "flood damage" are as contrary as one can get. |
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Old Wrench
Joined: 23 Dec 2013 Posts: 226 Location: Essex and France
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Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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With modern electronics, flood damaged cars are a no no.
Mainly since even where the obviously damaged bits have been replaced, the connectors gradually corrode and, hidden from sight, eventually die.
In any case, despite careful flushing, water has a nasty habit of causing further hidden damage: particularly to bodywork in double skin panels.
Reference the Merc, your chum, PeppiB doesn't have much luck with cars, does he?
Lucky he enjoys a deep wallet!
As a cynical acquaintance said to me when I purchased my first modern BMW;
"You know what BMW stands for?"
"No?" I replied, neatly falling into the trap............
"B ring a M assive W ad!!".
Which in truth, I have found to be wrong: and she is still with me now, after 25 years, as I suspect, this iconic model (Winner of the European Car of the Year Award) is a future if not present, classic. _________________ Well, apart from that, did you enjoy the play, Mrs Lincoln?
Last edited by Old Wrench on Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bitumen Boy
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 1740 Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire
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Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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peppiB wrote: | Thanks Mike. He is currently searching for a replacement engine (Parts Gateway)
His wife tells me that no matter what car he has, there are problems. The least trouble has been with this Merc, which I advised him to buy 5 years ago and this is the first issue he has had, and a Moggy Traveller to which I supplied and fitted a replacement engine over 5 years ago and has given faithful service since. His Daimler (1982) sits in a garage with an electrical problem which the garage are scratching their heads over, and he has a 1986 Rolls Silver Spirit which regularly breaks down!
Thankfully he has listened and is not going to waste money trying to repair this Merc engine |
It sounds to me like your friend, oddly enough, isn't spending enough on his fancy motors - and keeps buying projects in disguise as a consequence. You've sorted the Moggy for him and it hasn't given further trouble (not that I would expect it to) so he hasn't got the worst kind of luck, he just needs to have a long hard think about what he can really afford... |
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peppiB
Joined: 30 Jun 2008 Posts: 686 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
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Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't know him when he bought the Jag. He was told that it was a cat x but as he didn't know what that was he bought it anyway.
This Merc has done many miles in his ownership without putting a foot wrong, until the garage that did a service recently told him the head gasket had gone (mayonnaise on the filler cap) - he didn't know what that was. A different garage did the repair.
Couple of months ago he did have his eye on a 1949 open top, side valve, Singer I think it was, on eBay. Thankfully I talked him out of that. Doubt if many, if indeed any, of the local garages know what a side valve engine is and he certainly couldn't do regular service and tinkering to keep it on the road.
Old Wrench - his wife tells me he has had car trouble all his life. She reckons meeting me was Godsend for him as for the first time he actually listens to someone instead of blindly doing his own thing.
Whenever I see it is him calling I know there is either a car problem or most of the time a computer problem ....... he knows nothing about those either! |
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Bitumen Boy
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 1740 Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Oh dear. There may not have been much wrong with it in the first place! I would never assume head gasket failure on the basis of mayonnaise in the filler cap alone, but I wonder if the other garage did a compression test, etc? It could just have been down to many short local runs, and a good blast along the A1 would have sorted it out... |
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Old Wrench
Joined: 23 Dec 2013 Posts: 226 Location: Essex and France
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Bitumen Boy wrote: | Oh dear. There may not have been much wrong with it in the first place! I would never assume head gasket failure on the basis of mayonnaise in the filler cap alone, but I wonder if the other garage did a compression test, etc? It could just have been down to many short local runs, and a good blast along the A1 would have sorted it out... |
May well have been as simple as a blocked crank breather.
BTW: a compression test will not tell you much reference a suspected blown head gasket.
The correct approach is what is called a Cylinder Leakage Test. This is carried out on each cylinder when it is a TDC and all valves are closed.
An adapter is screwed into the plug orifice, or injector or glowplug (If it's indirect injection) and the cylinder pressurised up to say 150 PSI.
If rings then one listens in the dipstick hole. If inlet valve/s then in the air intake. If exhaust valve/s, listen to the exhaust tailpipe.
If water jacket watch the top of the rad with cap removed and look for tell tale bubbles.
The other method is to use a chemical stick in the coolant, which detects combustion gases leaking through the water jacket or the cylinder head gasket.
Changes the Ph. Esoteric chemical testers now also detect traces of hydrocarbons. _________________ Well, apart from that, did you enjoy the play, Mrs Lincoln? |
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peppiB
Joined: 30 Jun 2008 Posts: 686 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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As he has no idea of anything himself, and he needed that particular car for a Scotland trip (3 dogs and 3 adults to accommodate) he just took the advice of the servicing garage, although the work was done elsewhere as that garage was fully booked.
Just had an email from him saying he has received a quote for an engine - £595 inc delivery and VAT |
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