Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[Ray White]

Having read that the French are planning on phasing out Diesel vehicles over the next few years I have been thinking about what other major changes might be round the corner and how they might affect our hobby?

We know that ethanol can have serious effects on the fuel systems of older cars and that ever higher concentrations are planned. should we be worried?

We have already seen the end of leaded petrol and the rise of hybrid vehicles. I wonder if eventually we may have to convert our cars to LPG or some other fuel source if we are to continue enjoying our hobby?

Are we, or should we be thinking about how to keep abreast of an increasingly technical and environmentally demanding world?

Or would it be better to concentrate on fighting for exemptions from the more draconian changes as and when they come along?

[peter scott]

I suspect Toyota have the best direction if we can arrange the refueling.

http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/environmental_technology/fuelcell_vehicle/

I guess we could also run our old cars from a tank of compressed hydrogen.

Peter
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https://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon

[alanb]

It is quite worrying as to how future legislation and developments will affect the use and maintenance of our hobby, but I also think there are some potential issues that are over hyped.
For many of our older vehicles ethanol(alcohol) is not a major problem, as between the 30s & the 60s, alcohol was widely used in greater concentrations (up to 20%) than is currently proposed. Some reasonably simple mods can fix the problem.
Also I think we are sometimes too precious about originality, many people modified and uprated their vehicles when they were relatively new, or during their mid life. I can remember in the 50s my father fitting easyclean wheels and pre focus head lights to his Morris 8. So if fitting some unabtusive mods make my car more usable in the future I am ok with it.
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old tourer


Morris 8 two seater

[Ray White]

You are absolutely right, Alan. Perhaps I should have headed this thread as "Back to the Future"

I remember my Dad saying that he would buy Cleveland Discol as it gave the engine more "punch".

http://www.vintagegarage.co.uk/histories/cleveland%20petrols.htm

[norustplease]

I think that the one to worry about if you run a foreign classic, is possible separation of the UK from the EU. This would mean that the sources of spares in Europe and Scandinavia for your classic Volvo, SAAB, Citroen etc. will suddenly become a lot more expensive with customs, import duties, etc. returning, along the lines of those that affect anything that you buy from the States.
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1953 Citroen Traction
1964 Volvo PV544
1957 Austin A55 Mk 1
Boring Tucson SUV

[Ray White]

[Keith D]

Our hobby has to move with the times. It has no options. We must flex to new rules!

We all predicted the end of the world when lead-free petrol became mandatory. Yet our cars run perfectly well on it. Legislation changes and we bend with it. You people have just been told not to have your cars MOT'd every year. But nothing really changes, you still drive them on the roads with comparative freedom.

Very few, if any of our cars are exactly as they left the factory in respect of their originality. Radial ply tyres that were never fitted in the factory. Vinyl covered seats. Under bonnet mods that most people never realise such as electronic ignition, fuel pumps, and the like. Older cars have been re-wired with vinyl insulated wiring, even if it is covered with cotton to make it LOOK genuine. Much improved lights and braking materials. 6v systems converted to 12 volt. Electronic devices such as radios, CD players and the like. Even neoprene water hoses on the older cars. Use of silicone brake fluid. I can remember back in the fifties in the UK when it became mandatory for cars to have two rear lights and everybody with pre-war cars had to fit the extra light. I helped Dad fit a second rear light to our Wartime Commer utility.

Yet by comments on this forum it is obvious that we still enjoy our hobby even if we have to cheat a bit!

Another thing that surprises me is that people get very concerned about spare parts availability. In 40 odd years of my Austin A40 ownership, I have needed very, very few Austin spares. Sure the consumables like plugs and points, but there is no big deal with this, If necessary sleeves can be obtained easily that enable one to fit modern smaller diameter threaded plugs. I have done this very successfully with my Morris Cowley. Points can be fabricated by anybody who has rudimentary engineering skills. Anyway, the current flush of after-market parts has no reason to dry up.

Bearings can be bought for just about anything and if the exact bearing cannot be found, then sleeves are easy to make or have made. Again I did this with my front wheel bearings on my 1926 Chrysler. (Toyota bearings fitted!) More of a concern is the availability of tyres, but I have not heard of any shortage of sizes yet. With the internet market place thriving, political national boundaries should not be of any concern!

I was not aware that diesel is being phased out in France, but I certainly hope we do that here in Oz!

Keith

[Ray White]

Thank you for your considered response to my thread, Keith. You have obviously given some thought (as we all have) to the question.

It's impossible to predict the future - who would have bet on F1 having 1600 cc engines coupled to an electric power pack? - but one thing we can be sure of is that it will be different to what we imagine.

So if we can't be sure what's around the next corner all we can do is take the corner at a sensible pace and be ready to either put the brakes on or swerve out of the way of whatever the hazard may be.

I expect the FBHVC will continue to argue our case against the negative effects of ill considered legislation; I expect with varying degrees of success and if the past is anything to go by then we will all adapt the best we can; again with varying degrees of success.

Yes, the French Government who were originally the biggest supporters of Diesel cars have finally listened to the scientists who for years have been claiming that microscopic particulates emitted from Diesel exhausts are responsible for thousands of cancer deaths every year.

We shall see.

[Old Wrench]

I feel one must realise, rarely do governments or blocs such as the EU demand retrospective legislation: i.e. insisting new laws apply backwards.

For example, if the EU were insane enough to demand diesel engines were banned, totally, from, say 2016, then continental Europe would immediately grind to an instant halt, in terms of lorries, panel vans, tractors, site plant, diesel-electric locomotives, ships, barges (canals in Germany, Holland, Belgium and France are a critical aspect of freight movements) and etc.

More likely is a gradual phase in of non-diesel cars.
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Well, apart from that, did you enjoy the play, Mrs Lincoln?

[Riley Blue]

[Ray White]

Something which could affect us as classic car users is a Directive from the EU that seems to offer an extension to the M.O.T. exemptions for currently applying to pre 1960 vehicles. Or does it?

By 2018 vehicles over 30 years old or those which have been substantially changed will be required to be tested unless exempted by member states.
Should our government adopt the E.U. testing Regulations we may face problems as there seem to be no concessions for testing older vehicles as we currently enjoy with our M.O.T.

Even if our Government extends the present M.O.T. exemption to later vehicles, they may decide to implement the ruling concerning modified vehicles.

The problem as I see it is deciding what is a 'substantial' change and what is not. For example, if a car has been fitted with better brakes than original, would it need to be returned to original (and perhaps made less safe) in order to qualify for historic status and be therefore exempt from testing?

Presumably an inspection of some sort will need to be made to establish which vehicles are to be deemed "historic" and which will be tested. Also, who will be making the decisions and will there be any M.O.T. type exemptions for older vehicles?

Incidentally, steam powered vehicles never have been subject to roadworthiness testing. Will they be exempt?

The more you look into it the more unanswered questions there are.

[Old Wrench]

[Old Wrench]

[Ray White]

Since you put it like that, Oldwrench, I would ask the question what will happen to all the old cars in Europe? Will the EU be faced with a rebellion from all the other governments who will see that this is unworkable and set a cut off date?

When did the French for that matter ever take any notice of anything that the EU commission tried to impose? They just carry on the same!

[Old Wrench]

Old anything collectors abound in France!

A few years ago, I was taken to meet a most charming Frenchman (My chum asked my assistance to load some straw bales in his Transit for his stables) who owned a rather nice farm, bred horses and particularly, rare breed donkeys. Took us into the stables to meet a young donkey foal born the night before. Sweet little thing.

Turned out this man had been the franchise owner for Carrefour for much of Northern France and Carrefour had bought it back. He also purchased a whole system-build for new store for peanuts where the architects had screwed up the plans: and re-erected it on his farm. We went inside.......

Turned out he was the foremost collector of old tractors in Europe and old agricultural machines: as well as numerous motor bikes and cars. Every tractor ran and he insisted on starting a few to show me!

Had a beautiful Citroen late 30s Traction Avant. Pristine and a number of others.

About 16 years ago Mrs Wrench's trusty Volvo 940 estate broke down, just outside Caan in Normandy, on the edge of the peripherique: at rush hour!

Managed to get her (the car not the wife!) onto the grass verge and set off to seek assistance and a helpful local directed me to a small industrial estate and a garagiste. Who was a young guy with a superb workshop and spray shop and large yard who was the leading restorer of 1950s American sedans and convertibles in France!

I had already diagnosed the problem: new adjusting bolt on the alternator had snapped. He made up a new bolt whilst boost charging the battery. adjusted the belt. Including towing in and TVA (VAT) he charged me just forty Euros.

As the battery charged he showed my hundreds of pictures of his cars and shows.

French enthusiasts will tell the EU to sample the delights of sex and travel!
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Well, apart from that, did you enjoy the play, Mrs Lincoln?