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Rover P6 auto. Engine change
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Carcruiser



Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Worcestershire

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:24 am    Post subject: Rover P6 auto. Engine change Reply with quote

Hi folks,
Just a quick question, as this is a little outside my experience. I need to swap an engine on an Rover 2000 auto for a friend. I've never dealt with an auto box before and the manual suggests taking the engine and box out in one lump. swapping the gearbox over on the floor and then refitting.
A retired motor trade acquaintance suggested that approach was a waste of time and I should unbolt the torque converter through the starter motor hole, turning the engine to access the bolts and simply lift the engine away from the gearbox, leaving the torque converter sat in the bell housing.
Sounds easier, but I'm uncertain if its a good technique. Any thoughts?
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Iain McKenzie
www.fairmilerestorations.co.uk
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V8 Nutter



Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 526

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The second way is the usual way, but which ever way you choose make sure the torque converter stays in the box when you split it from the engine. Leaving it on the engine can lead to all sorts of problems
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Ray the rocker



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 187
Location: south wales

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:13 pm    Post subject: post subject Reply with quote

Leaving the gearbox and torque converter insitu is the way to go every time.many garages I`ve worked in always has "the lazy git"who removes the engine with the torque converter as a unit and spills a gallon of auto fluid over the garage floor ! Then when replacing the engine---damages the oil pump drive that slots into the gearbox or splits the inner oil seal on the box. Embarassed Removing the bolts from the flexy drive plate stops all the frantic "it`ll go in with this special ten foot bar with a bit of pressure I made "",-----lesson learned the hard way.....ray the rocker..
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ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whilst not familiar with the auto box on a P6, I have swopped auto for manual on another car, leading to a few words of caution. I also had the engine from the manual and found that many other items are bolted onto the manual to facilitate an auto box. Worth checking before you start.
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KA

Better three than four.
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2323
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ka wrote:
Whilst not familiar with the auto box on a P6, I have swopped auto for manual on another car, leading to a few words of caution. I also had the engine from the manual and found that many other items are bolted onto the manual to facilitate an auto box. Worth checking before you start.


I don't think the box is being changed auto/man. I mistook the first reading and thought the same, until I read it again.
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ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, thanks, when I read swap, I did not read 'replace' rather thinking 'exchange' oops..........
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KA

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Carcruiser



Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Worcestershire

PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys. Yes its staying auto - just changing a tired old engine for a fresher one. I was just wary about splitting the engine and box as its something I haven't had to do before. I'd much prefer to leave the gearbox in the car if possible.
Funny really - 27 years of messing with old cars and bits and there's always something new to deal with Smile
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Iain McKenzie
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 247
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I last did a 2000 gearbox R&R, i was advised as follows. Not sure if this was an official procedure.....
Put front on stands, as high as possible. Disconnect battery.
Remove the vertical bolts through the engine mounts, replace with long screwdrivers or similar - enough clearance in the holes for the engine to tip fore-aft. Remove the rear gearbox mount, and connections from shifter to gear box, all wiring (reverse etc). remove tailshaft(watch out for oil loss). Disconnect engine top and bottom hoses to radiator, heater hose at rear, gearbox oil cooler pipes? , waterpump fan (so it doesnt hit radiator)and anything else that might be damaged by contact with the firewall when you rock the rear of the engine downwards - choke cable, throttle linkage etc. Exhaust pipe also disconnect!
Best with two people - one up top, one underneath. Pull rear of gearbox down until you get access to all the bellhousing bolts and clearance to slide the box backwards past the firewall. This worked for me a couple of times, although they were manual boxes, not autos.....Your mileage may vary.
HTH
jp 26 Rover 9


Last edited by jp928 on Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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emmerson



Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 1238
Location: South East Wales

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must disagree with my esteemed colleagues on this one.
The people who built the car knew what they were doing, and they recommend removing engine and box together.
It is many years since I did one, but that is the way I did it.
Aside from all else, as has been mentioned it is essential that the torque converter is not allowed to slip off the gearbox input shaft; if it does, and is incorrectly refitted it will caused major (expensive) damage to the box oil pump. It will be much easier to get this right with the unit either on the floor, or bench.
For the extra half hour or so involved, it's not worth taking a chance.
But, its your choice!
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 247
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately for us, mostly we do not have the resources the maker had to do things the way they recommended, so many mechanics have devised more practical , economic ways to do things. Do you follow the manual in replacing the exhaust rocker shafts in the F head engines, or drill a 1" hole in the bulkhead/firewall and pull them out backwards? Do you replace big end or main shells by selective assembly (from a bin full!) these days?
Agree with the torque converter removal care issues, but there will always be many ways to skin these cats.

jp 26 Rover 9
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2323
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in the 90's my Scorpio auto transmission failed the afternoon before we were due to leave on vacation. I knew the guy who ran the local auto-transmission centre and called him. He had a rebuilt transmission in stock.

's were agreed for 4 of his mechanics to do the work that evening.

The car was collected on a flat bed, offloaded at the garage, up on the ramp, gearbox off, new gearbox back on and ready to go in under an hour.

These guys, actually one guy was a gal, changed transmissions on a daily basis and knew every trick in the book.

We were able to catch the ferry the following morning.
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Minxy



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 230
Location: West Northants

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emmerson wrote:
I must disagree with my esteemed colleagues on this one.
The people who built the car knew what they were doing, and they recommend removing engine and box together.
It is many years since I did one, but that is the way I did it.
Aside from all else, as has been mentioned it is essential that the torque converter is not allowed to slip off the gearbox input shaft; if it does, and is incorrectly refitted it will caused major (expensive) damage to the box oil pump. It will be much easier to get this right with the unit either on the floor, or bench.
For the extra half hour or so involved, it's not worth taking a chance.
But, its your choice!


Absolutely agree 110%

Recently I have been following a thread on an Audi forum on removing the engine on a turbo Quattro. The official, and by far easiest, way is as the manufactures recommend - drop the sub-frame and lower the engine/ trains complete through the bottom. The tread on the forum goes into great depth on how the engine can be removed on its own, in short by removing everything attached to it i.e head, manifolds,timing gear,water galleries etc etc Rolling Eyes ....why oh why, it just makes no sense.
If the engine needed to come out of either of my old cars it would be engine and transmission, no if's or buts.
But as you say Emmerson it's choice.
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2323
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those who have visited modern car factories or watched videos will have noted that the bodies are invariably lowered onto and the engine/transmission, complete with suspension lifted to meet it. Everything is lifted and lowered on complex jigs and weight is not an issue.
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Bitumen Boy



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1411
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Minxy wrote:
emmerson wrote:
I must disagree with my esteemed colleagues on this one.
The people who built the car knew what they were doing, and they recommend removing engine and box together.
It is many years since I did one, but that is the way I did it.
Aside from all else, as has been mentioned it is essential that the torque converter is not allowed to slip off the gearbox input shaft; if it does, and is incorrectly refitted it will caused major (expensive) damage to the box oil pump. It will be much easier to get this right with the unit either on the floor, or bench.
For the extra half hour or so involved, it's not worth taking a chance.
But, its your choice!


Absolutely agree 110%

Recently I have been following a thread on an Audi forum on removing the engine on a turbo Quattro. The official, and by far easiest, way is as the manufactures recommend - drop the sub-frame and lower the engine/ trains complete through the bottom. The tread on the forum goes into great depth on how the engine can be removed on its own, in short by removing everything attached to it i.e head, manifolds,timing gear,water galleries etc etc Rolling Eyes ....why oh why, it just makes no sense.
If the engine needed to come out of either of my old cars it would be engine and transmission, no if's or buts.
But as you say Emmerson it's choice.


Another vote here in favour of removing engine and gearbox as a unit. Years ago i changed the gearbox on my Herald, pulling it out on its own through the inside of the car and fitting the new 'box the same way, which appears to be the generally favoured method. It was a bloody horrible job! The gearbox and bellhousing is too heavy to be easily handled at weird angles - my back has never been the same since - there was some damage caused to the car interior and of course much dirt spread around, I had to jack the car up and grovel around underneath for the bellhousing bolts, the starter motor was a pain in the arse and reaching the clutch at all (for a check and subsequent replacement) wasn't much better.

A few years later, it was time for an engine swap. The engine will of course come out on its own, but remembering the gearbox job I elected to remove the lot in one piece. What a revelation! Hardly any work to do inside the car with no dirt or damage, no jacking, no lying on the cold concrete floor, no struggle with the bellhousing bolts or starter motor. The gearbox came off with hardly any effort at all - as I was able to straddle it and lift with my leg muscles in best health & safety fashion I barely noticed the weight of it, and the clutch was nice and easy to access too. Reassembly with the new engine and putting it all back in the car was a breeze so I know what I'll be doing next time, even if "only" for a clutch change. Yes it's a bit more work removing stuff like exhaust and radiator and it takes a little longer, but the end result is better and you won't knacker your back either.
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