Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[colwyn500]

A similar thread may have been posted before, but of so I can't find it.
I wonder how old you would expect to be before giving up driving voluntarily.
I ask because yesterday I helped my good neighbour to get insurance on his car. He will be 93 next March and whilst he only does local journeys now, he's out in the car several times a day.
I have some doubt that he should be driving but apart from a little bit of over-confidence as he roars up his driveway he seems OK and has a clean driving licence and maximum no-claims bonus.
Should there be a cut-off age for driving?

[alastairq]

No!

For several reasons.

The need to surrender one's licence ..[IF...one should have held one in the first place?}......should [leaving levels of driver skill aside] be down to physical abilities. [I am ignoring mental, or psychological aspects for now]

If one is physically able to function as a driver, than what has age got to do with it?

Thus, if a 40 year old sustains a physical health issue which limits how they can perform as a driver, they should surrender their licence.

A regulation which is currently in place.

In my view, an even bigger influence is driver skill.

We have now got to the stage where older people with current Driving Licences have never ever acquired the driver skills commensurate to the time they have held their licences. Often, their skill levels are barely above those they achieved [and demonstrated] for their Driving Test.

When they make an error [driving fault], rather than blaming skill level, others blame their age.

This is all down to a lack of [mandatory, or ought to be] Driver Education.

Only recently have we actually done something about ongoing driver education, with vocational drivers.....!!! So, what chance have we got of educating ordinary, non-vocational drivers? None!

If the consensus is to place an upper age limit on holding a licence, I recommend making that age 37 !

Or, 22?

We must be very very careful when applying an assessment of the driving skill, or ability, of another.

For, unless we are, ourselves, qualified driving standards assessors, then we can only assess from the viewpoint of our own,personal, skills and abilities.

Therein lies the problem.....people will always have a high regard for their own standards and skills, when applied to driving.

Actions that we ourselves would consider risky [or, to use the cliche, dangerous?] may in fact be perfectly low risk, from the viewpoint of the other driver. Worse still, if we ourselves had been in exactly the same position as the other driver, seeing what they can see, maybe the reality is, we ourselves would have been the ''downright dangerous'' one?

As I once said to a colleague who commented on how twitchy the steering and handling of my Dellow was, at speed, ....how 'unsafe' it was..my response was...'it was perfectly safe and low risk...but, if he had been driving, it would have been downright lethal.'

Of course, if one has doubts as to the abilities of an older person, why not suggest they have their driving standards assessed by one of the so-called 'advanced' driving institutions?

[And, whilst we're at it, have our own skills assessed as well....just to see whether we are actually qualified to pass judgement on another?]

Another aspect we must consider is...for decades now, successive governments have[deliberately?] run down Public, or alternative, transport systems.

To the extent that, older folk especially, find that mobility is really in their own hands...there are so few, convenient, bus services, etc....at a cost which is less than that of running a car.

The automobile has become 'white goods'....we need our cars as much as we need fridges and cookers.

For [in the UK] there is little or no, effective, alternative.

[Ellis]

Good topic.

My own mother stopped driving at 95 when she started feeling that her confidence at the wheel was waning. She had held a clean licence for 50+ years and was accident free.

I can give you an example of the dilemma that this subject can cause.
One of the local coach companies carries schoolchildren and one of their senior drivers, long retired from full time driving, used to help out at peak periods during the summer months to drive school buses. He was in his early 80s, held a valid PCV licence and had passed his medical assessment.

The local paper featured him in an article and unfortunately the parents of some of the children complained angrily that their children were being exposed to risk by being driven by an elderly man.
Genuinely hurt he stopped driving buses forthwith.

Was there not a notion to prohibit people over the age of 70 having driving licences a few years ago?

Quite ridiculous.
_________________
Starting Handle Expert

1964 Jaguar Mark 2 3.4 litre
1962 Land Rover Series 2a 88"
2002 BMW M3 E46 Cabriolet

[mikeC]

I agree with all the above; age is not of direct significance.Physical ability, including reaction times, and mental attitude are of far more importance. I would welcome a compulsory regular re-assessment for all drivers, but also realise the logistic impossibility of that!

Some years ago a near neighbour gave up riding her motorcycle at 96 years of age! She had never taken a driving test, having started riding back around 1905; the bike was a pre-war Sunbeam of I think about 500cc, so no electric start or any other modern aid. She gave up because she fell off it, and was absolutely furious with herself ,,, not because she came off, but because she was physically unable to pick the bike up afterwards!
_________________
in the garage: 1938 Talbot Ten Airline
Recently departed: 1953 Lancia Appia, 1931 Austin Seven, 1967 Singer Chamois, 1914 Saxon, 1930 Morris Cowley, 1936 BSA Scout, 1958 Lancia Appia coupe, 1922 Star 11.9 ... the list goes on!

[Rick]

After reading Ellis' post, I think I too would wonder about having children driven in a coach by someone in their 80s. That's not to say that they're going to be a worse driver 99% of the time (probably quite the opposite), but while I'd not be wailing to the local newspaper about it, it would be something I'd not be entirely comfortable with - rightly or wrongly.

It's one thing driving your own car in advancing years (and yes it could plough into pedestrians at a bus stop, but I'd never suggest putting an upper age limit on driving per se), but having a bus full of passengers, I'm not so sure.

RJ
_________________
Rick - Admin
Home:https://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk
Videos:https://www.youtube.com/user/oldclassiccarRJ/videos
OCC & classic car merchandise (Austin, Ford ++):
https://www.redbubble.com/people/OldClassicCar/shop

[Penman]

Hi Rick
At least you would know that the driver was being medically checked at regular intervals and also undergoing Driver CPC reassessments/training.

At the other end of the scale there was, a few years ago a sixth former in Cornwall who was driving a 30-40 seat school bus with his fellow students as passengers.
His father owned the company with the contract and because it was a schedule service under 50km it fell within the PCV at 18 regulations.
He parked up at school and if the bus was required during the day another driver came and retrieved it.
_________________
Bristols should always come in pairs.

Any 2 from:-
Straight 6
V8 V10

[47Jag]

For my 70th. I bought myself a year old Jaguar XF, thinking at the time that 'it would see me out'. Surprise, surprise I'm still here so at 76 I have just taken delivery of my 2nd ever new car. The 1st was a Landcrab in 1966. I thought about it long and hard and made a conscious evaluation of my driving skills and came to the conclusion that I would not be a problem to other drivers. In fact I was surprised by how courteous I had become

Art

[Peter_L]

I am afraid that generalisation on this subject can lead to dissention.

A 53 year old bus driver drove his bus and school kids through a flooded road, he is now in jail.
Does that mean that 53 is a dangerous age and 52 would have been OK. ?

http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/story/2016-12-09/school-bus-driver-jailed-for-dangerous-driving-in-flood/

I don't see anyway that legislation will reduce accidents, I have seen 30 and 40 year olds who don't have the skill to handle a wheel barrow.

[emmerson]

It is quite simple - after 70, let's have a test every five years. And that from a 74 year-old!
Mind you, I can think of a lot of people who need another test at 20, or 30 or......(enter any age you like!)

[colwyn500]

Some very interesting and passionate comments and I agree that age in itself in no way is an indication of poor driving ability.
The law in the UK is rightly biased towards self de-selection from driving with age.
The problem with my friend of 92 is that despite him being the fittest, physically the healthiest and most youthful-looking man of that age I can ever imagine I will meet, his capacity to judge whether or not he ought to be driving appears to be decreasing quickly just at the time that the making of that decision has become most pertinent.
Evil old Dementia.

[Rusty]

When I was last up at my little vintage club I was talking to our eldest member who had driven himself down to the "cup of tea" meeting we have every Saturday, and when we were finished he hopped into his car and drove himself home.

He had turned 100 last January.

Now admittedly I used to live in this quiet country town without the traffic you get in the city, but I think as long as you are capable and confident I don't see why a mandatory age limit has to be put on it !

[Ashley]

My uncle packed up driving when he was 101, he used to say "I always travel at eighty on the motorway" so I don't get in anyone's way.

He was very bright and surprisingly okay, but I think we all worried about him.

He died at 103 and his great grandfather was born in 1780 and fought on the Bellelaphon at Trafalgar. Amazing how far he went back.

[Paul fairall]

A short story, my neighbour who is 88, was wrongly diagnosed with Alzheimer's two years ago and the Dvla were notified. In the meantime while the Dvla were dragging their heels, he was found not to have Alzheimer's but the Dvla insisted he have a driving assessment. Not a bad thing at 86. He booked some driving lessons with a very good instructor, IMO and I went as a passenger at my neighbors request. Now my neighbour is fine when he is driving to somewhere he knows but got confused when the instructor gave him instructions where to to turn. On the day of the assessment I went with my neighbour to the test centre and on the way he approached a roundabout, stopped too far from the give way line and then moved forward and straight onto the roundabout too slowly and a car came round and I had to tell him to stop or there would have been a collision. I didn't give him much hope in the assessment but he didn't do anything dangerous. The assessor sent off his report and my neighbour hasn't been told he cannot drive but haven't returned his licence yet. It's a difficult thing for someone to tell you, you cannot drive anymore after driving for many years but must be done in some cases. I'm sure I will know when the time is right and toddle off to the bus stop with my bus pass. It may be more of a wrench for some of you car guys but although I've raced cars and 250 super carts I was more of a motorbike person until I found my hayabusa difficult to move around due to its weight and so I stopped riding. Although I still ride a scooter we use with the camper.

[colwyn500]

I think your views on that are very sensible and balanced Paul. I have looked into this and it is stated that the assessment is not the same as a driving test and the assessor is able to take into account any normal bad driving habits which may inevitably have crept into an older person's driving style. They are also aware that the candidate will be in an unfamiliar car and possibly on unfamiliar roads and that is also taken into account.

[Paul fairall]