Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[Ellis]

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Above is a photo of the gear lever arrangement of a Landrover Series 2 or 2a such as my own. Four speed, nothing unusual about that except there is no synchromesh on first or second gear, but strong synchromesh on third and fourth.

I find driving a "semi crash box" such as this actually enjoyable but there again I have driven many vehicles without "synchro" on the lower gears in my early driving years.
I do not find "double declutching" as challenging so I listen to the engine revs and ease the gear lever when the revs sound "comfortable" as my late father described it.
Even at an early age he would ask me when to change from 2nd to 1st and vice versa on the 1962 3 speed Vauxhall Velox we then had. " A simple matter of listening" he would say.
The non synchro first gear on my Jaguar Mark 2 has a different character however but the old Moss gearbox is an awkward crunchy beast at best. Unless you get the revs right you will be rewarded with an embarrassing "clang" changing up or down

I must admit I have never driven a vehicle with a completely non synchromesh gearbox but would like the challenge some day.

What are your thoughts on what some would describe as primitive gearboxes?
Do you enjoy the challenge and would a young classic car owner adapt easily to no synchromesh?

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Starting Handle Expert

1964 Jaguar Mark 2 3.4 litre
1962 Land Rover Series 2a 88"
2002 BMW M3 E46 Cabriolet

[alastairq]

Yes, I have always enjoyed getting the best from a challenging vehicle. Making the best of what I've got, rather than wishing my driving life away!!
I've spent a lifetime driving for a living, or instructing others, mostly to a more advanced level, & I've enjoyed my work, for the most part........

Proving to an unbeliever that having a useless clutch pedal, for example, isn't the end of the world.......... Or the journey!!

As a one-time bus driver, managing several hundred gear changes each hour, with a crash box, I felt, entitled me to the odd crunched gear change now & again!!

Having a map of the gate cast into the steel cab floor usually got some invective from me before I set off. ( A particular Albion/ECW saloon springs to mind!!!)

Or, even, having no detectable gate at all? (Some AECs spring to mind?)

Small gearboxes were ( IMHO) harder to change smoothly, due to the small engine's ability to rev quickly. On big boxes, with big slow engines, one could count the gear teeth under the lever, and literally change gear with one's finger tips.

Best way for me with a straight cut gear box was to change gear at lower revs, if possible.... Although a hill start, with literally a crash change from 1st to 2nd at about 1mph was a fingers crossed job.
Never did crush the instructor's matchbox that had been placed behind the rear wheel, with dire warnings about who was buying the tea if it was unsuccessful.

In times past, those signs at the bottom of steep hills, demanding that drivers stopped, to engage crawler or first, and to stay in that gear until the sign at the top,were ignored at peril!!!!
How many modern drivers totally ignore the signs at the top of steep hills, to 'engage low gear now?' Then wonder why their brakes are so hot & smelly?
Drivers today are oh so lucky their nice comfy insulated vehicles allow them to ignore all that is going on outside, and keep them safe.

[Keith D]

I consider one of the best indications that a driver understands his car is when he is driving expertly with a "crash" gearbox. Yes, every now and again you fail to get the gearbox speed exactly right for the engine speed, but hey, the challenge is to get better and better at changes!

It is also one of the reasons that I hate automatics! You don't drive an automatic, you simply steer it! There is no challenge and no smug feeling when you make the perfect change!

Ellis, spend some time driving a friends vintage car without any syncromesh and see how much you enjoy manual changes as you become proficient. As Alastairq has remarked, you don't need the clutch pedal at all once you are moving. Just listen, get your revs right and simply change gear. Magic!

If youngsters can suss out the complexity of modern computers and other electronic gadgets, I'm sure they could master a simple thing like synchronising their gear changes!

Keith D
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1926 Chrysler 60 tourer
1932 Austin Seven RN long wheelbase box sedan
1950 Austin A40 tourer
1999 BMW Z3
Its weird being the same age as old people.
You are either part of the problem or part of the solution

[ka]

The Morgan has a three speed and reverse straight cut box, no helical gears for HFS!. When driving in winter with the standard gear oil, you need to DDC when going up the box, not just down. After a while it becomes a matter of course, as heel and toe.
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KA

Better three than four.

[mikeC]

I love driving a car with a crash gearbox but sometimes it can be frustrating when the change is too slow to make progress - a big heavy flywheel and widely spaced ratios are not conducive to quick changes!

Quite the nicest gearbox I have driven was on a 1931 Talbot 75, where lightning quick clutchless changes could be made (most of the time ); double declutching and getting it just right the gearbox would pull the lever into engagement without any pressure - most satisfying!
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in the garage: 1938 Talbot Ten Airline
Recently departed: 1953 Lancia Appia, 1931 Austin Seven, 1967 Singer Chamois, 1914 Saxon, 1930 Morris Cowley, 1936 BSA Scout, 1958 Lancia Appia coupe, 1922 Star 11.9 ... the list goes on!

[baconsdozen]

My dad gave me a few driving lessons,one thing he drummed into me was changing gear without the clutch by matching engine revs to road speed. At the time it seemed pointless but I think with hindsight it gave me a better 'feel' for the car. I still have a go every so often although all bar one of my vehicles are automatic.
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Thirty years selling imperial hand tools for old machinery(Now happily retired).

[peter scott]

I think a heavy flywheel is quite helpful with crash boxes.

Peter
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https://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon

[roverdriver]

I learned to operate a crash box shortly after learning to drive a Ferguson tractor when I was about 14. I disliked the idea of bringing it to a halt to change gear. (The owner was not amused!). The first car that I owned with a crash box was a 1930 Morris Minor, then I got a job driving Canadian Military Pattern Ford trucks in mountain country- miss a gear change and one was in dire strife! I ran Model A Fords for many years.

The challenge of effectively driving such vehicles makes it all worthwhile. Old habits die hard, and I often find myself double declutching on more modern vehicles, especially when changing down to reduce speed.
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Dane- roverdriver but not a Viking.

[peter scott]

[alastairq]

I agree with Peter.....I once .in living memory, had to drive my old Volvo 740 after I loaned it to an ex-wife, who proceeded to crack the gearbox casing where the clutch lever entered.....drove it for a fortnight to & from work, without a clutch, whilst I fabricated a bolt-on fix.

Stall-starts were a fact of life, and involved commitment & resolve at junctions....but.....not a process to be afraid of.


Automatic gearboxes can be controlled by the driver, to suit....the problem is, one has to approach the selection of gears from an entirely different angle to that used on manual gearboxes.

The gearbox changes the gear, what the driver does is exercise control over what the gearbox does, once that gear is attained.

Using either the 'hold' position, or the kick-down.

When using the 'hold' to prevent the gearbox changing up again [getting more revs in a given gear]...if one has to slow down, then the gearbox will obligingly change down...something a driver ought not to worry about?

If one wants a lower gear, then the kickdown is useful and instant.

If it won't kick down, then it's likely the gearbox will recognise the engine has no usable revs in the lower gear, so refuses to kick-down.

Thus preventing the driver from making one of the two mistakes drivers make when using a gearbox?

[Trying to select too low a gear, at too high a road speed? Or...trying to select too high a gear, at too low a road speed?]

I learnt to drive biggies first on proper pre-select gearboxes [London Transport AEC RT]...now, climbing out of my AH Sprite, into an RT, was fun, and confusing.

Yes, the gearbox would select & acquire the gear one had chosen......so, it would drop one in it if one had made a mistake. Often resulted in a sudden loud clatter of feet from the top deck, as one's conductor promptly hurtled down the bus towards the front........having accidentally selected 2nd gear, when one really wanted 4th?

This could be achieved unintentionally, if one was a bit forthright with the gear selector,, and have wanged the lever into the 4th gear slot too hard......whereupon, un-noticed.....the lever bounced back from the end, into just the right position for alignment with the end of the 2nd gear slot.

Depression of the gear change pedal at the required time, resulted in the bus standing on its nose-end when the pedal came back up!

The engine braking effect of a large AEC diesel was quite astonishing!

[Bitumen Boy]

I would have been about 20 or 21 when I had to drive a Landy of similar age to Ellis' example for work. No problem with first or second gear but an embarassing couple of crunches because the boss didn't bother to tell me that the synchro on third and fourth was buggered anyway... Soon got the measure of it though and enjoyed the drive for all that this particular example was a terminally knackered old shed. To date it's the only vehicle I've experienced with pedals comfortably sized for size 10 boots.

[billysugga]

I had a ferret scout car with preselected gearbox and it was good, there was a potential to knee yourself in the chin or at least skin your knee on the steering wheel if the gearbox brake bands were not adjusted correctly.

I will have to learn the art of double de-clutching as my sugga has no sync, so any advice gratefully recieved(that's if I ever get it on the road of course)
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Volvo Sugga ,Volvo Trygge
I just wish one was working!

[Penman]

Hi
I don't know about the internals in the non or partial synchro boxes I have driven ( Austin Ten Four, Vauxhall DX, Morris E Austin 8, Rover 14? (6cyl) etc. but I never had any problems changing up, they were all petrol so the revs dropped relatively quickly, and i found learning to bring the engine speed up for a down shift while "dancing" on the clutch pedal was quite easy for me perhaps it is just being attuned to engine sound/revs equivalent.
I even taught pupils to do DDC changes down into 1 in early Minis.
A few years ago I had occasion to do some driver assessments in a 7.5 tonner which turned out to have lost it's synchro on 3 and I fifnishede up having to talk the drivers through the foot dance and sounds for DDCing in order to get through the day without rattling all our teeth.
I have even managed to get a pupil home after a clutch cable snapped on a lesson, by using the clutchless gear change technique, and then getting the the car to the garage.
I still use a modification of DDCing when making a change down on extreme hills such as some of the Lake district passes.
The modification being that with a modern box you just sustain the revs while changing.


(EDIT)
I should have added that this is when trying to maintain speed up the hills, not when changing to a lower gear for the downhills.
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Bristols should always come in pairs.

Any 2 from:-
Straight 6
V8 V10

[peter scott]

[BigJohn]

I once drove a Triumph 2000 estate with a no clutch fluid (slave gone) from the middle of Leeds to Grassington in Upper Wharfedale, setting off at the start of the evening rush hour. I had my wife, 2 small sons and in-Laws on board. I had to start in first and stall at traffic lights. Once it was moving the Triumph box didn't really need a clutch pedal as is was such a sweet unit.

(I will admit once on the country roads I just switched in and out of overdrive 3rd )