Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[Penman]

Obviously you all know that you won't be able to use E10 in your classics/collectibles.
BUT maybe like me you have an older modern as a daily or even a family spare hack.

Can it use E10?

DVLA website has a set of E10 info pages starting here:
https://check-vehicle-compatibility-e10-petrol.service.gov.uk/
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Bristols should always come in pairs.

Any 2 from:-
Straight 6
V8 V10

[Penguin45]

[alastairq]

I agree with Penguin45 there.

[We should all have been replacing our rubber fuel lines on regular basis anyway, shouldn't we? After all, petrol & oil degrade rubber massively. We replace old hard coolant hoses as a matter of course.....don't we?}

E10 is 95 octane petrol, with 5% less petrol [or rather, the constituent additives fuel companies put into the base petrol..?] than with E10.

The only issue I can see thus far is there may be a need to make the mixtures in our carbs very slightly richer.
Any car running an ECU will do that automatically.

We can also play around with ignition timing a bit more as well, since old designs of engine will benefit from better running on E10.

This has been proven by the Manchester University tests conducted by Paul Ireland, et al.

The full results [not aimed at E10, but on modern [today's, and yesterday's] petrol as a whole.} can be found in the book linked to below.

https://www.veloce.co.uk/store/Classic-Engines-Modern-Fuel-The-Problems-the-Solutions-p151478624

Follow-up Q&As can be found on the internet website linked to below.

https://classicenginesmodernfuel.org.uk/Clubs/ModernFuel/BulletinBoard/Default.aspx?dyn_menu_useclub=1000001

I find it difficult to understand why certain major manufacturers have had models made relatively recently, that they say are still incompatible with E10?

Especially when E10 fuel [and E85, etc, petrols } have been available in other countries as a matter of course, for some time now?

I can only assume the manufacturers of certain models of car cannot guarantee the local factories where these cars were made, used ethanol-resistant rubber components in their fuel systems??

There are also, currently, quite a few ''standards'' of fuel line which to some degree or another offer resistance to the effects of alcohol [ethanol]....

I have noted [especially on ebay] some fuel line listed as suitable for ethanol, where as, on investigation, the standards the rubber is made to, conform to the less resistant, more basic BS numbers.
As penguin45 notes above, the R9 standard is for totally alcohol-proof fuel line.
Again I offer a link to a supplier of this stuff below. Thus far, not a customer, but I shall replace the newly fitted rubber fuel lines on my Dellow with the R9 stuff soon....I do not 'trust' the 'new' hose I cut off a roll last year, to be ethanol resistant.

https://www.advancedfluidsolutions.co.uk/100-bio-fuel-hoses-petrol--diesel-hose-0--100-199-c.asp?fbclid=IwAR0wv_3YwJcsu-jaPWqDmv-k7KLjQZJmUPekRjtrB2fiwuh9SibuBBR6EqQ

The other major change I shall make is, if I 'lay up' any of my vehicles for any length of time, the fuel tanks and systems will be completely drained.
I shall also make every effort to exclude water from the fuel systems.
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Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
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Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.

[Riley Blue]

[Ray White]

One thing; it seems daft to me to use a food product as fuel.

Also, E10 is less economical than E5. Apparently, it gives between 6% and 11% fewer miles to the gallon than E5.

Sorry, I don't remember where I read that.

[Crashbox]

The topic of E10 has been brought up on the International 2CV Friends forum a number of years ago. A forum member from Finland posted that E10 had been in use there for the best part of a decade and he had used it over 70,000kms (40,000 miles) without any issues whatsoever. Another chap who hails from the US has also said he's had no adverse effects from using E10. I think a lot of the stories are created by companies who have 'special products' to cure these so-called issues. Who remembers the balls of 'lead' that everyone with cars without a catalytic converter must drop into the fuel tank? Utter nonsense. The same thing with the so-called Millenium Bug that was going to crash the entire internet when 1999 clicked over to 2000. Nothing happened.
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1989 2CV

1932 Morris Minor S.V. Two-Seater

[Miken]

Can someone clarify.
Is it the water that ethanol can contain that can potentially cause corrosion or the ethanol itself?
My car has a Zenith carburettor . The brass jets are located in bottom of the alloy float bowl and are permanently submerged in fuel.
Is ethanol likely to attack them?
It won't take much corrosion to a brass main jet to adversely affect performance.

[Crashbox]

My understanding is ethanol can absorb moisture from the air which then reacts with the alcohol to produce an acid that can attack various materials. I'm not entirely convinced how much of an issue that is likely to be, given that an ethanol rich (as much as 20-30% has been suggested) petrol was available in the UK between 1928-1969, under the name of Cleveland Discol. Henry Ford also designed the Model T to run on 100% ethanol with just a tweak of the carburettor.
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1989 2CV

1932 Morris Minor S.V. Two-Seater

[alastairq]

Ethanol is absorbed by water. The mixture is highly acidic.

Therefore, as water settles underneath petrol, so there is a risk of a highly acidic blob effecting the metal of a container.

Ethanol [as far as I've ascertained] doesn't behave like brake fluid does with moisture.

So if condensation is allowed to form in a fuel tank[for example] and ethanol is present [as it has been for a decade or so now? E5?] then the drops of water in the fuel suck out the ethanol.
This is how the bodgers suggest might be the way to remove ethanol?

Thus, I would avoid leaving fuel in a tank over a period of time.

However, I fear poor old ethanol is going to get the blame for all the ills in old fuel systems....when in fact, ethanol may have nothing to do with dissolving gaskets, porous monkey metal carb bowls, etc...All of which may well manifest themselves regardless?
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.

[alastairq]

I also found that, at last, my local garage is stocking E10.

Since the E10 [or E5] stickers mean the fuel will contain ''up to'' 5 or 10% ethanol....there is no real guarantee the E10 petrol will actually have 10 % in it..there can be less than 10%!
So the 'new' E10 might be pretty much the same stuff as the old E5......but the labelling has to be there.

Also, the Esso superdoopa hexpensive petrol for soopahdoopah fancy motors, said to contain zero ethanol [what other naties do Esso use for anti-knock, then??] is labelled, at my local garage, as E5! No I don't live in the West Country, Scotland, or NE England, where Esso superpus will contain 5% ethanol, like it or lump it!

anyway, bunged in 20 pensionquids' worth of E10 into my daily 02 Suzuki grand vitara...[cost me 500 quids]...OK so it's mixed with the odd left-over gallon of E5 already in the tank, but, car motored along without issue....

I'm going to drain my Dellow's tank, and plonk in some E10, maybe re-set the SU carbs' mixtures a bit [it's a tad rich anyway...the needles aren't worth the labels as they've been altered by chucking in a drill and applying emery cloth..]

Just to see if the sidevalve engine really will run better on E10, as the Manchester Uni tests demonstrated.
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.