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Ray White
Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 7172
Location: Derby
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 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:37 am Post subject: negatively charged air intake. |
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I have stumbled across something which might prove to be a major development in enhancing engine performance.
I would be very surprised if the motor racing fraternity have not already latched onto the all round improvements that clipping a simple low DC voltage ioniser to the air filter can apparently make.
Has anyone tried it ? |
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Bitumen Boy
Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1763
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Sounds like snake oil to me. |
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peter scott
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7215
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Good for very fine dust but maybe not for the gritty stuff that does most warm.
Peter
_________________
https://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon |
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peter scott
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7215
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Good for very fine dust but maybe not for the gritty stuff that does most warm.
Peter
_________________
https://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon |
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Ray White
Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 7172
Location: Derby
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:23 am Post subject: |
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The idea is not to assist cleaning but to use the ionised air to improve combustion efficiency. The use of negative ion generators built into the air intake of an internal combustion engine was patented in the USA ...but I understand that has now expired. !
Corresponding with an interesting chap in America who has been experimenting with these things for a few years I have established that care needs to be taken not to over do it - as too many ionised particles can cause an engine to howl and burn plugs.!!
It would seem that in a small engine only a 1 volt input is required and that the system is only beneficial above 7 degrees below freezing. For smaller engines suggest 1 volt only.
Obviously there is a lot more research required but it sounds interesting. From what I can gather, the physics suggests a "corona discharge" of negatively charged particles occurs at the carbon fibre brushes. The incoming air becomes negatively charged and is essentially unstable. This means that when in the combustion chamber it "wants" to react with the fuel more and less energy is wasted.
I can't imagine the idea would work with pre oiled filters like K&N but "dry" filters should be O.K.
I am keeping an open mind but it sounds sufficiently logical to not be casually dismissed.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165449553915
Only use with a DC/DC voltage step down converter. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334207669235 |
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Bitumen Boy
Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1763
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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The guy has something to sell... definitely snake oil...  |
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Ray White
Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 7172
Location: Derby
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Bitumen Boy wrote: | | The guy has something to sell... definitely snake oil... |
I have investigated the subject and there are dozens of Patents relating to the ionisation of air intake. Nothing new about it. Further research is needed... though I can see the potential.
Other inventors have used high voltages which produce harmful quantities of Ozone. That doesn't work in practice. It would seem that there are several difficulties in OVER ionising the air intake; one is that it can cause carbonisation of the plugs and another is that it can make an engine "howl".
Less is more!
For some reason it has been observed that a far better result can be achieved by placing the generator before the air filter.
Here the generator is placed after the filter.
PATENT:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5487874A/en
Last edited by Ray White on Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ukdave2002
Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4251
Location: South Cheshire
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Ray
All my following comment is pure speculation!
I think that we would all agree that the "quality or mixture of air" would have an effect on combustion, so lets assume that the charge of the air does, then one challenge would be; how is the charge regulated with differing air flow volumes, temperatures , humidity etc. Possibly with an ECU managing everything this could be controlled?
As you indicate the Patents suggest that this has been known for along time, yet mainstream manufactures have not adopted it, this suggests that either its too difficult to manage, too expensive, or that the benefits are just not worth it?
Again I stress this is just speculation on my part!
Dave |
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Ray White
Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 7172
Location: Derby
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ukdave2002 wrote: | Hi Ray
All my following comment is pure speculation!
I think that we would all agree that the "quality or mixture of air" would have an effect on combustion, so lets assume that the charge of the air does, then one challenge would be; how is the charge regulated with differing air flow volumes, temperatures , humidity etc. Possibly with an ECU managing everything this could be controlled?
As you indicate the Patents suggest that this has been known for along time, yet mainstream manufactures have not adopted it, this suggests that either its too difficult to manage, too expensive, or that the benefits are just not worth it?
Again I stress this is just speculation on my part!
Dave |
Hi Dave. I think you make a perfectly valid point. Let us for a moment imagine that the benefits that have been observed by the guy in America are real and the duplication that HE says have been seen in other vehicles are genuine - and it's not just a 'wind up' by an on line attention seeker - then we need to know exactly what is happening inside the combustion chamber. There needs to be a means of observation - in the real world - as to what effect (if any) different conditions have on the engine.
I am informed that the generation of negatively charged ions in extremely cold conditions cause starting problems and even damage to sparking plugs. Yet, by the same token, there are improvements in cold starting if the system is switched on at temperatures over - 7 degrees.
I am always suspicious of claims that seem to show improved MPG. As Bitumen Boy observed the guy has something to sell. I have enquired and found that to be the case. A kit is available for $40.
Then again, who wouldn't try their hand if they thought they were onto something.
I wonder what happens if the timing is adjusted to allow for a faster flame front? |
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Bitumen Boy
Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1763
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| Ray White wrote: |
I wonder what happens if the timing is adjusted to allow for a faster flame front? |
A modern would be able to do that automatically, wouldn't it? |
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Ray White
Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 7172
Location: Derby
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Bitumen Boy wrote: | | Ray White wrote: |
I wonder what happens if the timing is adjusted to allow for a faster flame front? |
A modern would be able to do that automatically, wouldn't it? |
I am sure you are right... but I wanted to know if it would work on our old cars. This device is presently aimed at moderns.
As Dave suggested; maybe an ECU is able to make the most of changing conditions. I am being told that on board diagnostics is detecting performance improvements... but like you, I need to see for myself. |
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