Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[Rick]

Following on from something that was raised in the Dodge truck thread..posting from buzzy:

"Is Ash not Wood? hehehe

I am getting confused now to what you are saying, Green wood, whether it be green oak or another species, I thought was how it came, it then drys out and may twist or warp, but if you gat it kild dried or simmilar you reduce this risk. Is this correct?

Now I am not sure if you are meaning the species, I mean you can get White ash, Green Ash, Red Ash, Swamp Ash and Water Ash, maybe others but they are the only ones I know.

I still don't understand why you have to use Green Ash (as in the state, not the species) for framing, rather than dried Ash?

I hope this all makes sense, because as I am writing this I am rather confused!

Cheers

Dave "
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[Uncle Joe]

I'll try to answer this as best I can. As a reference I am using two books, one written in the late 1800's, another in the late 1900's.

In the UK at least, the premier wood for framing is English Ash. Traditionally, this has always been shaped in the 'green' state, then dried or seasoned. Done in the ways of the old craftsmen, it would not warp or wind later.

Nowadays, what usually happens is that seasoned wood is steamed, then bent to shape in formers, and kiln dried.

'Cheaters' will shape wood by sawing and glueing.

Older craftsmen, if any are still alive, would have used only the first method, because the other two WILL fail in some way later. The second book points this out!

It doesnt matter what kind of cars a company is restoring. Its the quality of work that counts! So even if the company does have a Bentley in their workshop, it means less than nothing.

UJ, being controversial again!

[buzzy bee]

Hi

I see, so seasoned wood can be used, but it needs to be treated in a different way. If you can cut the whole shape from one plank, I supose this should be good enough.

I mean I understood the first ash framing was done by cutting sections from planks and then glueing them together, then to speed things up steaming and bending came about. I think I have read this in someof my vintage books, and also on a think about swallw/Jaguar cars through the ages.

So cutting and glueing should be ok, if it is done correctly?

Cheers

Dave

[UKdave2002]

Dave

Have a chat to the people at Potters, don’t know if you know them, they are a very old fashioned firm, only just progressed to using calculators!, but what they don't know about wood ain't worth knowing! Give yourself plenty of time though because they love talking about wood, I once asked them about the suitability of Cedar for a conservatory.... I was there for an hour!

Surprisingly in there catalogue they list woods specifically for car building !




Dave

[Uncle Joe]

No buzzy, you've misunderstood I'm afraid....maybe I need to learn some english!

Glue is a relatively modern invention. Glued up ash frame members will fail! Cutting a piece from a board, can lead to short grain, which will fail.

Seasoned Ash can be, and is steamed, formed, and then kiln dried. But if a lot of care is not taken, it will warp later, in spite of the fact that ash is a relatively stable wood. This is really just a more economical way of doing things, thats all.

Remember that the old time craftsmen knew what they were doing, and always did things for a reason, maybe one that we in modern times cant understand!


UJ

[UKdave2002]

My hour in Potters is coming back to me….. , one thing that is key is the grain pattern through the cross section of the timber, if you can imagine a tree trunk being sliced up for planks, a plank from the outer side of the tree will have a different grain pattern from a plank taken from the centre of the tree, this affects how the wood will naturally warp, all wood will swell and shrink to a certain degree even after drying, but the cut / cross section of the grain means that this is predictable, so you need the right wood, right drying process and right cut, befor you have even started !!

[Uncle Joe]

Yes, thats correct. Nowadays, mills convert trees into boards by slicing them. So that means that only the bords from near the centre have the 'short' end grain.

Years ago, trees were quarter sawn, to get better boards from as much of the tree as possible.

UJ

[buzzy bee]

Hi

I will re read my books and watch my DVD's on the subject.

I understand the bit about short grain, but I disagree with the bit about steaming, as this was a later development, if this was a later development how did they fix the pieces together?

I also disagree about glue, this is not a new invention, all of my dads antique funiture has been glues, and that was probably made before most cars. Egyptians used hide glue to glue funiture nearly 5000 years ago.

Anyway, I will try to read up again, and probably prove myself wrong later!

Cheers

Dave

[pigtin]

I have some problems with the wood on my 10/4 and all this has really frightened me, didn't know it was so complex.
I have been toying with the idea chopping out the rotten part of the wood and replacing it with suitably reinforced filler, polyester, or something similar. I know some of you will think that it is a rotten bodge but it's only an extension of an age-old principle. any thoughts?
Don.

[Rick]

I do know of someone who has used a wood 'hardener' to good effect in his old car (not me before you ask!!), I guess that is a bit of a cobble up in some ways, but if the damage isn't too extensive, perhaps another option to look at?? at least to put off the fateful day when replacement is the only option..

RJ
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[Uncle Joe]

Buzzy: Quite right, glues have been around since a few thousand BC.

The first british patent was around 1750, making them quite modern....to me at least.

Pigtin: what a lot of window restorers do here is chop out the rot, and then splice in a piece of good wood. This could possible be the best bet for you, its a lot easier than it sounds. There used to be several books that described this. Otherwise I can organise short furniture restoration course for you, in the UK of course, the techniques are similar...

UJ

[UKdave2002]

I'm no expert on glueing wood, but do remember from my woodwork classes at school using a glue called "Cascamite" (might be the wrong spelling), which apparently is used by boat builders to glue wooden bits of boats together, and our teachers veiw was that it jointed wood stronger than the wood its self?

I do remember thinking it was odd, because its was a powder that was mixed with water, yet provided waterproof joints. Don't know if its still around or if its the right stuff to use on ash frames!

Dave

[Uncle Joe]

Yes, Cascamite is still around, or at least a modern version with the same name! There is better stuff available though. But in practice, you dont need glue, in fact, in my opinion, its better without!

Thats got you all thinking!

UJ

[buzzy bee]

Hi

I no one of the wooden joints on my ford door is not glued and should never be glued!

Cheers

Dave