Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[Roger-hatchy]

Bleeding as a verb and the other one.

We spent a few hours last night trying to bleed the brakes

New slave cylinders all round, new rubbers and piston in the master cylinder and reservoir, all new brake pipes.

The rears are 100e and the fronts are twin leading shoe we think from a 105e, the cylinders are the same and the layout matches.


We pumped nearly a litre of fluid through the system, no sign of air left.
We tried starting from the nearest, then from the furthest.
The pedal still hits the bulkhead, if I pump the pedal a couple of times plenty of pressure with no creep, no sign of a leak from anywhere

Anyone any thoughts on the subject as to why they feel like air in the system after all the air has been bled.

Roger

[ukdave2002]

Hi Roger

Looks as if you have tried all the obvious things, so here is a couple of odd ones;

Is there any point where a brake pipe loops over something? you can get an air bubble in the top of the loop which can be a bugger to shift.

On my Stag, the clutch slave cylinder bleed nipple is not at the top of the cylinder, so you can get a small pocket of air right at the top that’s difficult to bleed out, some people resort to slackening the cylinder mounting before bleeding and temporally moving the cylinder so the bleed nipple is at the top, I don’t know what position your cylinders are but this could be a problem. Pressure bleeding usually sorts this out though.

If for some reason you have lots of small air bubbles (can occur if the fluid was poured into the reservoir quickly) in the system, leaving the car for a few hours can help as they will tend to accumulate at the high points as larger bubbles, these are easier to bleed through, again a pressure/ vacuum bleeder will help.

Dave

[Uncle Alec]

With the Rileys a comon problem is that the hydraulics are working fine, it's just that the brake shoes never make it as far as the drum, so the system doesn't get that locked-up feel. Do you lock all wheels via the shoe adjusters before bleeding?
I have a collection of knackered brake drums that I have cut Kraft-Processed-Cheese-shaped wedges out of; I pop these on to observe the action on each wheel (also handy to set the shoes parallel to the drum).
If this doesn't apply, I'm afraid it's possibly a case of wrong assembly of seals, or some other assembly problem, usually in the master cylinder.

[Roger-hatchy]

Some good points there.
The Pipe run from the Master cylinder and resevoir dose pass up and over the hight of the resevoir in a loop then drops down about six inches to the fourway feed piece, like a T piece but three outlets.
I'll have a look again and see if there are any other 'bridges'
Also that idea of locking up the shoes with adjusters sounds good

I can remember that M.A.N. units we had used to be a pig to bleed, one way was to reverse bleed, pump the fluid back from the nipple to the reservoir.

Another thought
Have not adjusted the brake adjusters since the fluid went in.
Did the usual after the brakes and drums were put together, ie. tighten the adjusters to centre the shoes and then release the adjusters till the wheels turn.

Thanks again
Roger

[Roger-hatchy]

Just had another thought
With twin leading shoe, should the bleed nipple be on the top cylinder.
It was always on the bottom before, but I've not had an empty system before.
Will have to look and see if it can be swapped over.

[First Bedford]

Had a problem similar with a Minor, had put a seal in the master cylinder the wrong way round.
Vauxhaul Brava, had to put in a 3 way tee near FNS wheel as this would never bleed properly, that extra bleed point solved the problem.

[Kelsham]

Hi, I used to have difficulty bleeding the brakes on a series 2 Landrover. I finally cured the problem by removing the drums and clamping the brake shoes against the cylinders, this then allowed me to bleed all the air out.
Does the pedal begin to work if you keep pumping it?

Regards Kels.

[Phil - Nottingham]

All the above tips and yes I too have put the mater cylinder recuperating valve in the wrong way
_________________
Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2

[Roger-hatchy]

Got some more air out of the system last evening.
Not a lot but anything is a no no
Will leave it for another 48 and bleed again.
At least all the joints are still dry.
AND the pedal is not hitting, the bulkhead, still close though but adjustments might sort it

As to the adjuster cams

I thought I'd checked them, I now find the front O/S cams are seized and that they have no flats to get anything to bite on, how did I miss that when I had the lot apart.

Still, not too much of a problem just an unnecessary annoyance, and expense.
Will have to get a couple of new cams.

Will have to get on with something else.

Roger

[Jim.Walker]

I seem to remember that like A55s and A60s the 105E Fords have snail cam adjusters on the front drum brakes.

When I worked in a garage we frequently got DIY cars in where the owner could not bleed the brakes. The reason was laughably simple!

Generally brakes are adjusted until the wheels lock to force the slave pistons into the cylinders. Thus ensuring no air pocket the fluid could by-pass existed within the cylinder.

When snail cam adjusters are used to lock the wheel they allow the piston to move further out of the slave cylinder forming the air pocket behind the piston. For these the adjustment should be FULLY released and if necessary a tourniquet or similar used round the shoes to force the pistons fully home into the cylinders while bleeding the front brakes.

Do this and I can almost guarantee your brakes will be bled successfully regardless of the where the brake pipes run.

Jim.
_________________
Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then!

[Roger-hatchy]

Jim
Sounds a good tip but I'm hoping that they are OK now.
If not it won't take moment to pop the front wheels of an ratched strap the shoe's

We managed to get another couple of pinhead bubbles out of the system, from one of the other wheels,

Have managed to re adjust the brakes and now seems OK
I think this car might be one of those that has a long pedal travel, having not been in a classic for 30 odd years, got used to power,air and vacuum brakes for too long, having to put a bit of effort into my leg now

I'll leave it till next weekend when it will be under it's own power and see, if OK then OK.

I did have an 'eezibleed' a few years ago, might be time to get another.

Have seen a 'build your own' version of a vacuum bleed system using a jar and a garage vacuum cleaner.

Knowing me I'd keep emptying the resevoir

Will keep you posted

[WLC4EVA]

,
If you haven't solved it, I suggest you check that there is some slack between the master cylinder piston and the push rod.

Failing that, I suggest you strip your mastercylinder to check the valve at the end is sound.
You can damage it by pushing the pedal to far.

All the vacuum bleeds I've tried leak around the bleed nipple.
The cure is to gob some gloop around their threads.

The Eezibleed seems a good idea until you get a leak that sprays brake juice around.

Jim's method is good, but I suggest you use clamps on the other hoses to ensure maximum flow through the cylinder you are bleeding.

Kind Regards, WLC

[Jim.Walker]

[Roger-hatchy]

I forgot to post that I had sorted the brakes.

Finaly used an eezibleed, and yes I did get a splash back.
Luckily I had a bucket of water ready, and a hose ready.

Still got a few bald patches, but the intention is for a respray / recoat in the winter.

Still a lot of work needed on the body but after 30+ years it was "get it running and mobile" especialy as DVLA had contacted me as to wether I still had the car, someone tried to register with my number.

I digress, even with the eezibleed it took a couple of litres, and a few days settling, to clear the system fully but got there in the end.

That was nearly 1200 miles ago.

Also, the old adage about "If you can't find something buy a new one and you'll find it"
Eezibleed, carb balencer and colourtune, had all of these in the 70's not a sign of them anywere, bought new ones did the job then found the old ones

Roger

[victor 101]