Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

Dobbin · Joined: 15 May 2013 Posts: 67 Location: Central Scotland

I'm looking for some information regarding the operating temperature of a 1954 Ford Popular Side valve Engine. As most of you may appreciate this engine didn't have a water pump or temperature gauge and I am trying to ascertain what the operating temperature is or should be. I have just purchased a gauge and sender unit and having installed them last night. Sender has been installed into the top or return pipe to the radiator via an adapter I have installed after cutting the pipe in half. During idle after around 10 minutes the temperature gauge was reading approx. 100C. I wasn't able to do a road test to see what the temperature was during normal driving but don't reckon it would be that much lower. I'm looking at possibly fitting a water pump to the vehicle but only if I was convinced that spend the almost £200 that it would be worth it. If anyone could provide the temperature that their engines run at as well as whether it has a pump or not I'd have some data to work with. Thanks for your time and your reply if you decided to post.

peter scott · Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 7216 Location: Edinburgh

Hi Dobbin,

Welcome to the forum.

Assuming it's not a pressurised system then 100C sounds 10 or 15C too high.

It probably has a silted up block and radiator. Take the core plugs out and dig it out. The radiator is a bit more difficult to clean but you may get some improvement with a high pressure hose in the top.

I wouldn't fit a water pump until you're sure that the block and rad are clear.

Peter
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Rick · Site Admin Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 22815 Location: UK

Welcome to the forum.

Did you fit the gauge as a result of another problem, or just out of curiosity?

As Peter says, back-flushing the system wouldn't go amiss. What country are you in?

Although not directly comparable, fyi I have a four-cylinder (3.5litre) sidevalve Dodge from the 1920s. Last time out, on a warm day, the reading on the (1960s) gauge, which also has its sender in the top hose, was 70c while running, getting to a maximum of nearly 80c during a period of driving, stopping, driving, stopping, but no more.

100c for a Pop engine sounds quite a lot, especially as it has a comparatively large radiator - this assumes that the gauge and sender are working correctly. It's a while since I last ran a Ford 1172 engine and none of them had a gauge fitted.

RJ
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colwyn500 · Joined: 21 Oct 2012 Posts: 1745 Location: Nairn, Scotland

I had a gauge in my sidevalve Austin for a while. I think it was around 85 C on average. I know that I had a bigger problem feeling it usually ran too cool for optimum performance rather than too warm. I believe that the lack of thermostat and water pump and consequent reliance on thermosyphon means that when new, these cars would have had to be somewhat overspecified for cooling. 100 C has to be too hot as I think you realise.

That was good advice to clean out the radiator and block. I know there are proprietary cleaning products but I used oxalic acid crystals dissolved in hot water, off Ebay and very inexpensive. Leave for as long as you have the patience and then flush. You WILL notice a difference once the brown crud has gone.

Rick · Site Admin Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 22815 Location: UK

Has the car been sat for a long time? When I removed the side water outlet on my 32 Minor, which has been out of use since the 60s, I couldn't believe how much rubbish I could spoon out, it was chock-full of clumpy brown muck.

RJ
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Dobbin · Joined: 15 May 2013 Posts: 67 Location: Central Scotland

I'll answer a few of your questions in a moment but firstly thanks for replying. I originally fitted the gauge out of curiosity more than anything. I had expected to see around 85 and 90C to be displayed. The car has not really been used for a while and had had a complete engine overhaul about 5 years ago. After seeing that it was reading 100C last night I was a bit surprised so I was going to take the radiator out at the weekend ( if I get time) and flush the system out. I'm located in Central Scotland.
It looks like the cars garage bound for another weekend. One day hopefully soon She'll get out into the sunshine, ha-ha.

ajlelectronics · Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Posts: 168 Location: Gloucester

I think your car is just crying out for some waterless coolant! Without a pressurised system your coolant will be boiling or close to it, even at typical running temperatures. Rather than fit a £200 water pump, I would put Vintage Cool in it. That doesn't boil until 180C.
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Rick · Site Admin Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 22815 Location: UK

An over-lean mixture, and engine timing not quite correct, can also cause an engine to run a little too hot.

RJ
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ajlelectronics · Joined: 04 Oct 2010 Posts: 168 Location: Gloucester

Partially collapsed rubber hoses, possibly an air lock (Do thermosyphon engines suffer those?), sediment in the block and radiator.

As Rick says, timing and mixture can cause the problem. Stale petrol?
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dclf1947 · Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:37 am Post subject:

As the gauge is new (and unproven) I would check the gauge by placing the sender in a kettle of boiling water first just in case it is reading high.

Dave
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alec.elliot · Joined: 28 Feb 2012 Posts: 58 Location: Worcestershire

I had similar problems with my 1936 Morris 8. It had been sat for the best part of 20 years with some watery soup still in it when I started to liven things up.

I used a product called Rydlyme (available in the UK) to descale both the block and the radiator. I didn't cause any leaks as a result of this activity but that does not mean to say that your rad or block is not so badly fouled up that it is covering any holes caused by corrosion, etc.

I also took out the core plugs and had a ferret about with a bit of coat hanger, etc.

Good luck

Alec

Dobbin · Joined: 15 May 2013 Posts: 67 Location: Central Scotland

Well I just thought I would give an update as to what I've done and what the results were. At the weekend I drained the radiator and block of some very dark brown 'liquid' definitely antifreeze, water and rust. After this I flushed and back flushed both radiator and block on several occasions. I used a 2" layflat hose into a plastic container so that I could see how much debris came out. Following this I filled the radiator (laying on it's back) with a solution of soda crystals and boiling water and left it over night. I was very surprised how much 'muck' was dislodged. further flushing and then I repeated the exercise with a heavy duty detergent, again I was surprised how much oily deposits were dislodged. Further flushing and then a general clean of the outside of the radiator ready for painting following a tightness test that I have completed tonight. I'll get some decent high temperature paint tomorrow and then I'll refit the radiator. On testing tonight the temperature was steady at a needles width above 80C. An improvement of almost 20C so I'm very happy. This is more where I had expected the temperature to be. Thanks to all who posted replies.

peter scott · Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 7216 Location: Edinburgh

Well done!

Glad you got it sorted.

Thanks for letting us know.

Peter (et al)
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Dobbin · Joined: 15 May 2013 Posts: 67 Location: Central Scotland

Update on the engine temperature. I haven't resolved my on going saga. Possibly due to the extremely warm weather we are experiencing.....summer has finally arrived, when out for a run in the old car today the engine temperature rose to just under 100, ouch. After a quick trip to the local scrappy, I have fitted a two speed electric fan to aid cooling. This helps but not sufficiently for my liking and detracts from the originality in my view however if necessary I will be keeping as a safeguard. I'm also looking at changing the fan blade from a 2 vane to possible a 4 or 5. Looks as though the purchase of a water pump is next on the agenda. Can I ask if anyone else is experiencing hotter running engines in their 103E's and also what does your temperatures sit at normally (oh and do you have a water pump or not). Thanks

JohnDale · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:20 am Post subject:

Hi Dobbin, silly question but is the fan on the correct way round? Fan on wrong way reduces efficiency by about 30%. It can be checked by holding an handkerchief at the front of the grill with the engine running, when it should draw it towards the grill. Some fans are not possible to fit the wrong way round due to shaping in the centre but I don't remember about your type of car. Cheers,JD.
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