Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
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Stuart2u
Joined: 06 Nov 2012 Posts: 52 Location: Nottingham
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Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:44 pm Post subject: Morris 8 E engine noise????? |
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Hi Guys, Sorry but its me again......I have attached a short video (with sound) to demonstrate the problem I need advice on.
My previous ramblings have indicated that I have refitted a newly acquired reconditioned engine & refurbished gearbox into my 1948 8 E over the past few days. See previous posts regarding initial problems.
However, the engine is now running as is the gearbox, having been tested through the gears whilst up on the lift. I haven't road tested it as I am afraid that the engine has a........hard to describe noise coming from it which disturbs me. Its not a knock or rattle. Its not the Dynamo bearing as I ran the engine without it already. I thought it might be the tappets as that is the nearest noise I could associate it with. But whilst I haven't checked them physically, I have had my engineers stethoscope on the tappet cover and it does not sound like its coming from there. In fact I have been all around the engine and gearbox and can't pin point the exact location it is coming from.
I did think it was coming from the front of the engine but sitting in the car with the floor out it seems like its coming from the rear of the engine!!!!!
I have concentrated the video over the front of the car and through the inspection cover in the wheel arch as that's the general area of noise.
It does not seem to be getting worse and I think it was there the first time I fired it up, but in the general elation of getting it firing, I might have overlooked it whilst fiddling with the dizzy etc.
Asking for advice on such things remotely is a big ask, but the video will help. What do you think.
Stuart
PS Oh and the guy that did the engine work for me died a few weeks ago, hence me coming on here to ask you again.
PPS The usual white 'PLAY' arrow has not appeared so just click on the picture and after a short pause it will run in a new page. The video also seems to be in a loop, so before it drives you nuts just click the stop button on the video control panel.
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Last edited by Stuart2u on Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:34 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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mikeC

Joined: 31 Jul 2009 Posts: 1808 Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire
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Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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As you say, it's very difficult to diagnose over the internet, but that sounds like an external noise to me, is there something catching on the dynamo pulley, or perhaps the flywheel. It doesn't sound too serious, but it does need investigating...
Whereabouts in Nottingham are you? |
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Stuart2u
Joined: 06 Nov 2012 Posts: 52 Location: Nottingham
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Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Mike. I live in West Bridgford on the south side of Nottingham.
I also suspected an external noise.....as I was not getting it through the stethoscope from where I expected it. All I can hear are the normal smooth workings of an engine, no suspicious noises at all. But as you have said that, I am going to double check again.
Stuart |
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goneps
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 Posts: 601 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:29 am Post subject: |
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It doesn't really sound like it, but I wonder if it's not the hoary old problem of one or more crank webs striking the sump baffle plate. There's negligible clearance, and if the plate is even slightly distorted there can be contact. Perhaps something to listen for with your stethoscope.
Richard |
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Stuart2u
Joined: 06 Nov 2012 Posts: 52 Location: Nottingham
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Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Hi Richard.
Is that the Baffle Plate sitting at the bottom of the sump? (see picture) Are you suggesting that a crank shaft 'lobe' is catching the top of it?(see picture) The noise I hear increases in intensity as I increase the revs or blip the throttle.....is this because the crank shaft flexes and therefore strikes harder.
If this is the case.....will it (go away) as it wears itself a groove or will I need to drop the sump.....I think I already know the answer.
I will go and have another listen later today when I am released from domestic duties.
Is this a common problem?
PICYURES NOW REMOVED. Stuart
Last edited by Stuart2u on Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Stuart2u
Joined: 06 Nov 2012 Posts: 52 Location: Nottingham
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Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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So I have been around the engine again with my stethoscope, this time with someone blipping the engine (not too much) to accentuate the noise as I couldn't reach all parts doing both things on my own.
Well I don't know if I have found the source....I think I have....it seems to be coming from low down in the timing cover close to the front pully above the sump line. It has been the only place I have been able to get a magnification of the noise through the stethoscope.
So what do we have in there......chain, oil thrower, sprockets, bearing. Its not a rattle so I don't think the chain is shot....shouldn't be. Loose oil thrower? front bearing....but I would expect a rumble as opposed to a higher pitched tapping. Must not discount the front pully catching on something.
Any ideas about this and if I dive into this job what size pully do I need to get the front pully off...is it a special Morris tool?
Stuart |
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ukdave2002
Joined: 23 Nov 2007 Posts: 4231 Location: South Cheshire
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Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Stuart
Do you know if the engine had liners fitted when it was rebuilt? The reason I ask is that liners fitted to these undersquare UB engines require relief at the bottom to allow for the relitavley large throw of the conrod. Even when the liners are ground to accommodate the swing of the rod, there is very little clearance between the rod and the bottom of the liners, if there is not enough the rod can foul the liner. It's a relatively simple job to grind a tad more clearance with a die grinder.......once the crank is out.
Hopefully your problem will be simpler.
Cheers
Dave |
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goneps
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 Posts: 601 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:31 am Post subject: |
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Stuart2u wrote: | 1. Is that the Baffle Plate sitting at the bottom of the sump?
2. Are you suggesting that a crank shaft 'lobe' is catching the top of it?
3. Is this a common problem? |
Stuart,
1. Yes, that's it.
2. Either a counterbalance lobe or big end; usually the bolts are the lowest point.
3. Not common, but certainly something to be aware of. Not worth stripping the whole engine in search of noises if all you need is to remove the sump.
If this is happening there will be a distinct mark on the baffle plate. A Series E engine I was loaned some years ago showed evidence of this.
To be honest, I wondered whether a fan blade might be hitting the radiator header tank, or something else in that region, but you stated that the noise still occurred when the fan belt was removed, which eliminates that possibility. I've had issues of that nature with my Series I.
Richard |
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Stuart2u
Joined: 06 Nov 2012 Posts: 52 Location: Nottingham
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Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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My first job this morning was to check if the noise I had finally identified as coming from behind the pulley was my mystery noise.........and an easier job than dropping the sump.
I remove the dog nut, behind which was a 'washer' with a lip on the inner circumference (See picture)....that was it. I was expecting a washer and shim between the dog and pulley as shown in the diagram.
I then removed the pulley and found on the crankshaft within the sump what appears to be a large flat washer with a keyway in it as if it should be locked in place.......in fact as you can see from the 10 sec video it is floating around freely and must be the noise I am hearing!!!!! (that's the first picture showing my finger)
So is it located in the right place......the exploded diagram (see picture) describes an oil thrower sitting on this shaft BUT is this located within the sump where it is now, or behind the pulley in front of the casing, as it seems to be pictured, where it could be secured by the keyway which secures the pulley. I cannot see a keyway on the shaft within the sump and immediately in front of the sprocket, even if there was one how would it be held in place?
Or is this the missing washer which simply fits on the keyway in front of the pulley.......if so where is the oil thrower?
The video clip just needs you to click on it and wait a few moments to load as per the previous clip in my original message.
Look forward to hearing your views.
Stuart
OTHER PICTURES NOW REMOVED. STUART
Last edited by Stuart2u on Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:30 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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47Jag
Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 1480 Location: Bothwell, Scotland
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Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Stuart,
The large washer IS the oil thrower and should be jammed against the crankshaft when the front pulley is fitted. The notch in the washer is so that it can be fitted/removed without taking out the woodruff key. So mas far as I'm concerned your quest continues
When trying to trace a noise it's handy to know if it's at crankshaft speed or camshaft speed. Put a chalk mark on the front pulley and try and relate it flashing around to the noise you hear.
Art |
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Stuart2u
Joined: 06 Nov 2012 Posts: 52 Location: Nottingham
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Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Art
Thanks for that...even though it was not the reply I was hoping for!!!!! I can't see anything else wrong around the timing chain and so I guess whilst I'm in the mood and before I put it back together and drop the sump, I wondered what lies behind the two bolt on covers shown in the two pictures attached.......these are not on my old engine.
Is the front one where a water pump would be located? As for the side one...is that some kind of water jacket take off point?
Whatever, would there be something behind there which might create a noise.....I don't want to crack either of them open if I don't have to on the basis that they are not leaking now and I want it to stay that way.
Stuart
PICTURES NOW REMOVED. STUART
Last edited by Stuart2u on Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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goneps
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 Posts: 601 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Stuart,
What you've got is not a Series E engine but an MM (low-light Minor) unit, at least as far as the 'short block' assembly is concerned. As you surmise, the cover above the timing case is where the water pump would be fitted and the side one is a coolant jacket blanking cover. There will be nothing behind either to make nasty noises. The Series E does not need a water pump; it has the large, tall radiator characteristic of thermosyphon cooling.
A further engine identification point is the oil filler hole behind the coolant inlet elbow; on the Series E block it was ahead of the elbow.
The head looks as though it's Series E, although I'm not familiar with Minor engines. It seems likely that this is a factory exchange unit, probably supplied by BMC. Most likely there will be a brass identification plate riveted to the bell housing just above the starter bulge—if not, there will be one or two small holes as evidence that such a plate had once been affixed.
Factory reconditioned exchange engines are notorious as hybrids—the reconditioning department seemed to throw together whatever bits they had lying around at the time, which is not to say that they're substandard. In the case of the earlier Eights with UB engine a factory exchange unit would often have an E or MM block with the associated benefits of counterbalanced crank and shell big-end bearings.
Pay no heed to the shim (no. 18 on the exploded diagram). The purpose of shims at that point is simply to pack out the starting dog so that the handle sits at the most convenient angle.
As Art has confirmed, the oil thrower must sit between the crankshaft sprocket and pulley, since its function is to control the amount of oil reaching the somewhat ineffectual rope seal around the pulley shank.
Unfortunately all this does not help your quest to locate the untoward noise.
Richard |
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ukdave2002
Joined: 23 Nov 2007 Posts: 4231 Location: South Cheshire
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Hi Stuart
In reference to my previous post; this is a UB engine that had liners fitted, the machine shop had cut the "U" in both sides at the bottom, however the rods still fouled them. I had to grind a chamfer by hand to get the clearance.
On this engine it was clear when I assembled it that the clearance wasn't there, you could turn the engine by hand, but it was tight as the rods brushed the liners.
However I think I would expect more of a "heavier" knock if this was your problem?...or it may be one rod just brushing a liner...
With the plugs out does the engine have any tight spots?
Also I remember you were debating whether to fit a new clutch cover that had different sized dowel holes, does depressing the clutch vary the sound?
Cheers
Dave
Dave |
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Stuart2u
Joined: 06 Nov 2012 Posts: 52 Location: Nottingham
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Dave
I have put the timing case back on as there was nothing untoward in there....thought that oil thrower was the culprit but that was too easy. The engine is running again and still making a noise. I don't know if new liners were fitted as there is no one to ask....I suspect they were.
Like you I would have expected a more definite knock if they were catching. But it could be that maybe only one of them is grazing the sleeve and the only way to find out is to have a look, So my next job is to drop the sump at the same time check for either the crank bolts or lobe catching the sump baffle.
I didn't notice any alteration in the noise when I changed through the gears when I was checking the gearbox, but I will depress the clutch with the engine running and listen to what happens.
I also didn't notice any tight spots when turning the engine by hand with the plugs out.
Onwards and upwards!!!!!
Stuart |
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Stuart2u
Joined: 06 Nov 2012 Posts: 52 Location: Nottingham
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Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Well. dropped the sump and low and behold, there are two clear gouge marks on the baffle where No 4 crankshaft lobe and crank bolts line up (see pictures)......I cannot see any corresponding marks on the lobe, but it difficult to tell as this looks like its been ground by hand previously (roughly) and so the original casting colour has gone.
The split pins which wraps over the end of the crank bolts don't show enough wear to cause the gouge that lines up with it (see picture).....so are these old marks which have been dealt with????????
(Thinking out loud) On the basis that the above is the case, it may be that the big end bolts are no longer striking, but the lobe maybe
I will re route the split pins to be sure. But just in case, would one way of resolving this, be to cut out the area in the baffle where the marks are, to be on the safe side. Would doing so compromise the purpose of the baffle?
Dave.....Whilst the sump is off what should I be looking for regarding the cylinder liners you refer to. I have posted a picture of one of the cylinders to show you.....not sure if it helps.
Stuart
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