Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[ka]

Here is an interesting thought, we as a Club have been notified by the MSA that they are clamping down on runs and rally's on the road and will be enforcing the law more closely.
Has anybody out there who organises runs in the UK, had any issues with them, bearing in mind that anything with more than twelve cars, and any at all in some circumstances need an MSA permit?
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KA

Better three than four.

[Penman]

Hi
Surely they are only responsible for competitive Motor Sport or are you saying that they are also claiming control of runs such as the members on here do, cruising between venues, like the truck run in Cheshire or Thanet's Christmas Cruise?
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Bristols should always come in pairs.

Any 2 from:-
Straight 6
V8 V10

[Riley Blue]

Isn't this only relevant to MSA affiliated clubs?
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David

1963 Riley 1.5
1965 Riley 1.5

[mikeC]

The MSA (and the RAC before the MSA was created) has long been responsible for all motoring events on public roads, not just competitive events. Any organiser has been responsible for obtaining a Waiver of Permit for such events, which hasn't usually required anything more than notifying the MSA of the event.

I don't know whether regulations have changed in recent times, but organisers should be aware of the legal requirements.

Unauthorised events have always occurred, of course, but if they have been organised by an MSA-registered club, then the club risks disciplinary action, whilst any competition licence holder who participates in such an event will loose their licence.

[Riley Blue]

I know about the Waiver of Permit requirement but I'm wondering which law(s) the MSA is now going to enforce. I'm not aware of any new ones that have been passed recently that relate to road runs or rallies, nor of any problems other than at the Jim Clark Rally so perhaps it's a reaction to that tragedy.
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David

1963 Riley 1.5
1965 Riley 1.5

[JohnDale]

What constitutes a run. Many people travelling to shows as individuals join others during travel as they're all going to the same place. You can see many classics travelling together, especially here in Scotland, where the travelling is done on minor roads, but they are only connected by traffic conditions. We occasionally have a club run but it is only cars travelling in the same direction. How can they tell the difference? Even classic road rallies are only observation rallies & are no different to all the other traffic except by age.
How will things be enforced - by someone trying to stop cars on the road. Good luck with that. Cheers,JD.
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1958 Ford Zephyr Mk2 Convertible
1976 Ford Granada Ghia.

[BigJohn]

We had this argument at our club, so to clarify I contacted the MSA and got this reply from Simon Fowler, MSA competitions and clubs manager, via my local rep Alan Shaw.:

Authorisation

Authorisation is required by the Motor Vehicles (Competitions & Trials) Regulations 1969 (as amended) for competitive events on the Public Highway.

The vast majority of Scenic Tours organised by motor clubs are non competitive and therefore do not require Authorisation. Organisers should however be aware that if they introduce an element of competition to their event it would then come under the remit of the Legislation which is part of the Road Traffic Act. For instance you included some treasure hunt type clues or had awards or penalties you would then have to apply for Authorisation of the route. Authorisation of Events in England and Wales are administered by the Competition Authorisation Office (CAO) at the MSA, Scotland has a separate office at the Royal Scottish Automobile Club http://www.rsacmotorsport.co.uk/index.cfm/fuseaction/RouteAuthorisation .

Within the Legislation, Regulation 5 permits certain competitive events to be automatically Authorised, so there is no requirement for formal Authorisation. This is where the 12 cars rule comes in. You can organise an event with a competitive element which is automatically Authorised if the total number of vehicles does not exceed 12.

There are details of the Legislation and the Authorisation procedures on the MSA website http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentviewarticle.asp?article=760 and on the FAQ pages http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentChapterView.asp?Chapter=288

It should also be noted that this competitive element can also effect entrant’s Road Traffic Act insurance as most policies specifically exclude competitions. We would advise all competitors to check their policies before entering such events.


MSA Clubs

In addition to noting the above, any MSA Recognised Clubs who organise a Scenic Tour will require a Certificate of Exemption which is a type of Permit. The MSA term these types of event as Touring Assemblies and have to be non competitive to comply with the MSA General Regulations.

So, no competition or prize element, OK.

[PAUL BEAUMONT]

When we organize scenic runs (touring Assemblies in MSA speak) for our Annual Rallies we always apply for a Certificate of Exemption, which does attract a modest fee (around £20.00) We also always consult the relevant MSA Route Liaison Officer who will advise if the MSA are aware of any other event using (or crossing) some of your proposed route. We always include the CofE number on the route sheet just in case some helpful member of the public chooses to be sh@#y.
In my experience RLOs are most helpful and the whole process can be done on line.

Paul

[ka]

The reply from 'Big John' is very good, but one or two more offerings, if you supply a route card, or an arranged route, then this will need a permit, and any form of competition, i.e., a box of chocolates for the first home, or entrant with best 'regularity' time, then a permit will be needed, in some circumstances if there are less than 12.
Another thought, if you as an organiser, which means you are the one either arranging, gathering together the people in the run, signing people on, etc, then you will need either third party, or public liability insurance. As an example, if a member of the public trips over some piece of equipment left by a person on the run, or burns themselves on a hot exhaust (you now get the drift), then there are any number of 'No win, No fee' legal eagles out there who will look for recompense, and if you are the one in Court, take your bank savings, or the deeds to your house with you!
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KA

Better three than four.