Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
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Rick Site Admin

Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 22778 Location: UK
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: Seatbelts in a classic? |
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Yesterday I received 2 emails, both on this subject. First up, an A40 owner:
"First of all, can I just say congratulations on a fascinating, excellent and comprehensive website: I'll be dipping in on a regular basis now that I've found it! Anyway, I was hoping to ask your advice seeing as my 18-year-old son has just bought a 1961 Austin A40 Farina Mk 1 - his first car - and, naturally, his mother and I are rather keen that he gets front seat belts fitted! A passing mechanic suggested three-point harnesses as the pillars are so slender on the A40, but another chap said that you only need one strong anchoring point... I'm hopelessly confused, of course, and wondered whether there was any course of action in particular, or any particular kind of seatbelt, that you'd recommend?
Thanks for your time, and all the very best for now!"
My reply to this was:
"In my Mk1 A40 I used to have normal 3 point seatbelts, ie you had the latch thing in the middle of the car, and the belts coming from the floor near the door pillar, and a top mounting on the pillar. The A40 wasn't designed for seatbelts so I suppose it wouldn't have the strength compared to if it had been designed for them in the first place.
Three point harnesses are an option as they come out of the floor behind the seats, so could take beefed up mountings welded to the floorpans (not much good if people want to sit in the back though), but they are a fiddle to wear. To be honest I think a conventional 3 point seatbelts would be a reasonable solution - better than wearing none at all which is the alternative. Anything retro-fitted to an older car is going to be a compromise, and I think this strikes a good balance."
And then a separate email asking the following:
".. following your articles on buying a classic I am now the proud owner of
a 1955 'sit up and beg' Ford Pop. My problem is I want to share the
pleasure of this car with my two kids (who are very keen and very
young). Can you give me any advice about fitting seat belts to my car so
that its safe for the kids?"
Anyone else have any comments on this subject??
Rick _________________ Rick - Admin
Home:https://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk
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62rebel Guest
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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i've fitted belts to many older cars; IMHO it's better to be safe than visually correct. inasmuch as mounting on thin pillars (? any structural member should be sufficient) i have done both pillar and roof beam mounts on Falcons. i understand that many veteran cars in the UK have significant amounts of structural wood and i have never had to deal with that. keeping in mind the final purpose of the vehicle in question would make a great deal of difference in how i would go about mounting any belts. any daily driver should have good self retracting 3 point belts, there's no reason for putting yourself or your passenger at risk. cars that are seldom driven and always driven with extreme caution at low speed could get by with simple lap belts which could be tucked away for showing the car. in the US we're mandated to have belts, period. if it has an engine and more than two wheels, it has to have safety belts. i will not drive or ride in a vehicle without them. |
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UKdave2002 Guest
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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I fitted 3 point inertia reel seat belts into the rear of the Stag, because I want the kids to be safe in it, as 62rebel says you can always find points to attach too with inginuity and a bit of commen sence.
Must admit I don't feel happy without a belt... |
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Scotty Guest
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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My first comment is re the A40 - it is essential when fitting a seat-belt then floor plates that spread the impact load over a "wide" area are used in conjunction with the mounting bolts. What I mean by "wide" is far more than just large flat washers, because all that's going to happen with washers is the bolts still rip and pull through the metal. The harder the impact the greater the forces that need to be distributed, which in turn means a larger area is required to dissipate the energy. If however the owner takes the time to weld at least a 3 inch square plate per fixing (full welds, not the four corners), or secures each of the bolts through sound chassis members (using large flat plate washers, each individual mounting an adequate distance from the other) then I can see the value in them.
As for the Pop - this'll be a floor up and a similar chassis mounting job as the A40.
Another thing with the Pop is, how are the front seats actually secured onto the floor? Once again there is absolutely no point going to all the trouble of extensive chassis mounting work if the front seat brackets themselves are screwed onto the floor with ordinary wood screws, self tappers or thin little nuts & bolts. In an accident your body mass will continue to move in the direction of travel and so to will the seat if it can pull out of insecure mountings - so there is no point restraining yourself only to discover your arse sliding out from beneath you as the seat you're sitting on heads off into the sunset! I discovered my Pop front seats were mounted using wood screws to secure "U" shaped electrical conduit brackets onto a chipboard floor - all I'm going to say is can you guess how much grip a screw has in wet chipboard?
And this leads to another important point that should be worth thinking about - if you're going to all the trouble of fitting seatbelts to any vehicle with a timber floor then you should consider the structural integrity of the timber floor and what it will afford you if the crash is severe enough to require the protection of a seat-belt. If the floor breaks up during the accident then once again a seat-belt isn't going to save you, because you could drop out right through the floor onto the road! An instance I have seen in a modern vehicle, where the driver ended up hanging onto the steering wheel with his legs dragging along underneath the van.
I know this started out a a fairly straight-forward question Rick, but after years of cutting casualties out of car wrecks I reckon I've seen almost all circumstances of improperly fitted seat-belts. |
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giggles Guest
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: |
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I don't know and wouldn't want to comment on the technial side of things, hubby is into all that, but the first thing we did with our Super Snipe when we bought was to fit 2 3-point seatbelts in the back for a little ones, who at the time were 4 years and 15 months.
We have had so much stuck from people for "ruining"a perfectly good car!! But having made a couple of trips in the car before the belts hubby put them in, I said never again. My girl, who was 15 months was up and down the back and wanted to join daddy in the front and my 4 year old son wasn't happy about not being in a seat belt. When we were kids it was the norm.
But now they are in the car and those people are now saying what a good they are to have and ask how did we do it, as they won't put their grandchildren in a car without them. Oh how things change!!  |
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Uncle Joe Guest
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: |
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I would never drive a modern car without seatbelts, but even though I might seem to contradict myself, would never drive a classic with them, or even attempt to fit them!
Why? Well, as Scotty points out, in order to save lives, seatbelts MUST be installed correctly. Otherwise, they can cost lives. In a classic, even fitting the spreader plates that were mentioned is probably not enough, as the loads could be transmitted to the next weak point, rust for example.
On the subject of Road Safety, one thing that is probably more important than seat belts is good driver education. Nearly 30 years ago, I completed the US Defensive Driving Program, which was the most worthwhile course I have ever done!
UJ |
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chimpchoker Guest
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:37 am Post subject: |
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Likewise I'm not going to comment on the techy side, too many lawyers around these days, sadly. However I will say learn to drive defensively and not offensively.
I passed the I.A.M and currently doing the RoSPA driving hoping for the gold medal when test time comes but any of the advanced driving courses will help.
When I sometimes lose it as my wife says, i do drive offensively and in reality it's not worth it. |
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giggles Guest
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:12 am Post subject: |
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Ok, that's all very well, what do you do if you've got a young family? It's not practical these days to have little ones in a car without seat belts and in our case we can't take the classical and daily car out each time we want to go anywhere. If that was the case my other would have an old motorbike or 3 instead of the cars. |
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Brian M Guest
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: |
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When my son bought his first classic at the age of 14 - a 1959 Standard Pennant, I was pleased to see that it already had 3 point (non inertia) seat belts fitted. By 3 point, I mean those fixed in the rear floor area on both sides of the front seats and running through a fixture on the "b" pillar. The type coming from a single point in the rear floor centrally behind each seat I think are known as "single point" belts.
I was concerned that as the car was not originally designed for seat belts that they would be effective if used to the extreme.
In the Pennant the webbing went through a fitment that was bolted to a plate measuring about 4inches by three inches that was welded to the vertical inner of the door cills where the plate was on the inside of the car covered by the carpet, and the central fixing was similar plate that was on the vertical sides of the propshaft tunnel where the plate was under the car, with a hole through the tunnel for the bolt. The shoulder point was a simple bolt through the B pillar that was inside a tube that had been welded to the pillar at each end.
As the webbing had seen better days I visited the specialist in fitting seatbelts to classic cars:
Quickfit
Inertia House
Lowther Road
Stanmore
Middx HA7 1EP
Tel 0208 206 0101
They confirmed that the fixing method in our car was how they would fix a set to a small classic four door monocoque car, and quoted a price to make new webbing either using my fitments and buckles or they could provide new fixings to the same pattern as mine. They need the fixings as these are put on the webbing before the webbing is sewn up.
I talked to them about the strength of the B pillar. They agreed this was the weakest point but that so long as the door remained shut in the accident there was enough strength in the pillar for it not to deform under the weight of the driver or passenger being transferred to it in a foward direction. In a two door car such as an A40 this fixing would be moved to the waist rail under the rear side window that would be a stronger place.
We then purchased a spares car and this had single point belts fitted. Four straps were fed to one mounting in the centre of the floor area behind the front seats. The plate under the floor was about six inches square. Not only was the mounting an obstruction to rear seat passengers but the belts were a real fiddle to put on. There were two straps that you had to put over each shoulder, two more that you had to pull up over your lap all of which were then attached to a buckle that rested on your stomach! I hate to think of the internal damage this would do to you!
LEGAL BIT: Please note all the above are observations only and anyone installing seat belts does so at their own risk. |
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Uncle Joe Guest
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Just a couple more thoughts on this subject.
Though Sweden has an international reputation of being a safety concious nation, I've never even heard of anyone that could think of putting seat belts in a classic. Which is food for thought, perhaps?
If someone is so worried about the safety of their children when in a classic that happens to be involved in an accident, then maybe, just maybe the children shouldnt be in that classic in the first place? Or could it be that the parents hobby is the more important?
Or, finally, why not buy a piece of Detroit? I few months after I bought my Lincoln, which doesnt have seatbelts, I t-boned a Volvo. The Volvo was totalled. The only damage I sustained was a slight dent to the front bumper...
UJ |
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UKdave2002 Guest
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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It’s an individual choice, whether we upgrade the engine,suspension,brakes, or safety features of our cars, if you do it right that’s fine if you do any mod incorrectly it can compromise safety. Any safety restraint is lightly to be better than none, driving in a way where you don't need to rely on one is even better!
I have 4 (2 front 2 rear) 3 point inertia real seat belts in the Stag, I have non in the Morris 8, I intend to put some in my MGA (when I eventually get round to restoring it!!!) that’s my choice because of the way the individual cars will be used.
You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to work out if there are suitable places for restraints. But if you’re not confident to do it your self use a firm like the one Brian M has mentioned, it’s what they do for a living.
If there was a head on crash between my Morris 8 and a modern car, The modern car with its crumple zones could be a right off and my Morris may look relatively unscathed, but which car would you want your family in? If you are using a classic as an everyday car IMHO you need to take a pragmatic view to safety, that’s just how it is, well in the UK anyway, a car that you take out on the odd a dry day is another matter (and if this summer is to go by we might never take them out!)
As I said safety stuff is an individual choice, if other folks disagree with your choice … well that’s just tuff! |
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Uncle Joe Guest
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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UK, to answer the last point of your post, in my case, would back my Lincoln against ANY modern car in an accident...at least I could drive home after giving my report to the Police. The only place the Volvo occupants went was to hospital....and by the way, the Volvo was a NEW one....but maybe a 2.5 ton car is unsafe!
I've got a photo of mine after the accident. If i can find it, I'll post it....
The thing is though, the best way to survive an accident, is not to have one!
UJ |
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Brian M Guest
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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UJ - you cannot be serious!
Sure - we should all drive defensively and hope to avoid an accident in the first place, but your 2.5 tons of American Iron is not going to stop your body from being thrown forward at only slightly less than your road speed when an inattentive driver in a truck comes out from a side road 3 metres in front of you.
It is this that this thread is discussing - not the post-accident damage to our classic or the damage it can inflict on other road users.
Any form of restraint will hold you back and reduce your forward momentum. In its most basic form a trouser belt going round your middle and then round the back of the seat would help. A belt fitted to a classic car not originally designed for the purpose will slow you down a bit more, and one in a car designed from the outset the have belts could even keep you firmly in place and stop your steering wheel rearranging your internal organs and your undoubtedly handsome features coming into contact with the windscreen (toughened or laminated). |
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giggles Guest
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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Having the damage to my husbands head after his car accident a couple of weeks ago and yes he was wearing a seat belt, it really makes you think. Hubby hit his head on the door pillar and cut it open on the seat belt fitting. He was driving a 3 year old Fiat Stilo and yes he was wearing his seat belt. |
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Uncle Joe Guest
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Brian M: I do see your point, but the thing is, neither myself or my passenger were injured in the accident I referred to. After all, it was only a tiny little Volvo (940) we crushed, ie a much lighter car. If it had been a truck, then yes, I can agree that the outcome would have been a lot worse for us...
Of some of the accidents I've been involved in driving, there have been three when I have been in US iron. In each case, nobody in my car was injured, but none of the other cars could be driven away. In two other accidents, (british cars) if I had been wearing a seat belt, then I wouldnt be alive today...
UJ |
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