Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[misterbridger]

Hi all, this is my first post on here, having stumbled on this forum while trying to solve a pub argument! My mate reckons that in 1971, with nothing more than a provisional licence at the age of 16 he could have bought and legally driven a Reliant three wheeler unaccompanied. Seems unlikely to me, but I've had no luck getting a definitive answer via Google. As he bet me his house and ten thousand pounds he was right (he'd had a few!) I'd love to shoot him down in flames - though I don't expect to collect on the bet!

[D4B]

Hi and Welcome here!

I believe that he is correct..... as you only needed a motorcycle licence to drive one, and you could get a provisional one of those at 16....

Correct me if I am wrong of course!!

[mikeC]

Sounds right to me; isn't it still possible for a sixteen year old to drive a three wheeler on a provisional licence?

[D4B]

Just gave it a go on the DVLA website.........



Vehicles you can drive

1What kind of vehicle do you want to drive
Motor tricycle (categories A and A1)

2Do you have a full car driving licence issued before 19 January 2013?
No

You’ll need a category A1 motorbike licence to ride motor tricycles up to power output 15kW, and a category A motorbike licence to ride trikes with a power output more than 15kW

Go back to the start of this tool and choose the motorbike option to see how to get these licence entitlements.


https://www.gov.uk/vehicles-can-drive/y/motor-tricycle-categories-a-and-a1/no

[misterbridger]

That's a shame - I'd really like to get one over on him, but it's probably just as well I didn't take the bet!

[Bitumen Boy]

Wasn't it whether or not the three wheeler had a reverse gear that made the difference?

[Penman]

Hi
The no reverse thing certainly related to using a M/cycle licence to drive a 3 wheeler for a period of years.
I don't think the L plates unaccompanied thing was true. As a learner you could only carry a passenger on a M/c if they were a full licence holder, so I can't see them allowing learners to drive solo in a vehicle which had side by side seating.
You could certainly ride a M/c over 50cc at 16 until 16/12/72 that was possibly when Category/Group P (moped) came in or that might have been on 1/3/73 when DVL Swansea started issuing all licences.
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Bristols should always come in pairs.

Any 2 from:-
Straight 6
V8 V10

[peter scott]

In the 1960s you could drive a solo motorcycle up to 250 cc unaccompanied on a provisional licence but you could also drive any engine size if there was a sidecar attached.

Peter
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https://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon

[Phil - Nottingham]

Almost correct - I bought and restored a Reliant Regal Mk6 (ex Austin 7 side-valve engine) in 1972 and used to to go to Salford University and back most weeks in 73/74 on my full motorcycle licence so no L plates required and quite legal

It was freezing in winter going up the A6 through Buxton but faster and warmer than my 1957 James Cadet 150 motorbike.

Sometimes used the M1 from J25 to J29 Chesterfield to join A6 at Doveholes - just as cold.

My Red driving lic was issued by Derbyshire County Council - Oct 1975 was when it upgraded after passing my car test then


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Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2

[Ray White]

Well now misterbridger, you would have won that bet!!

I have had personal experience of this. I was 16 in November 1970 and by 1971 I was driving a three wheeled Isetta 300 Bubble Car - with reverse gear.
My red provisional motorcycle license stated at that time that I was entitled to drive unaccompanied a three wheeled vehicle that had been - and I quote - " constructed or adapted to carry not more than one person".

The problem was that the Isetta had a bench seat designed for two people.

With the innocence of youth what I did to get round this problem was remove the bench seat and fit a single driver's car seat. I then started driving unaccompanied on "L" plates.

One day I was pulled over by a policeman who took my details. He reported me for driving unaccompanied on a provisional license. I stood my ground and claimed that I was complying with the exact wording of my driving license. The policeman then took the matter up with his Sergeant at Woking police station. The Sergeant, called me "a cocky little git aren't you?" but was equally perplexed with my position and went to see his inspector.

The senior officer advised me that he would be writing to my Father

In due course, a letter arrived from Woking Constabulary addressed to Mr Edward White.
Dad was quite stressed that I had been taking up police time with this matter but the letter quite clearly stated that this was a "grey area" but in their opinion whilst I may not been breaking a law relating to the driving license provisions I had not been behaving in way that was consistent with the "spirit" of the law.

More worrying, was the bit that said I had possibly been contravening "construction and use" regulations with regard to the seating of my car and was to desist forthwith from driving unaccompanied on a provisional license.

Interestingly, the license wording was later changed so that there could be no misunderstandings in future.

So there you have it. No, your friend, at 16 in 1971, would not have been legally entitled to drive a Reliant 3 wheeler unaccompanied on a provisional motorcycle licence unless his vehicle had "been constructed or adapted to carry not more than one person" and then only if it complied with construction and use regulations, which I doubt it did.

[Keith D]

In 1959 I had a provisional motor cycle licence. I rode a moped with 'L' plates. A family friend who had been a MOT tester, owned a 1959 Bond Minicar three wheeler that he allowed me to drive frequently. However, I had to have an experienced driver alongside me. The car had no reverse and I needed 'L' plates on it.

Keith

[Peter_L]

I too grew up through the rather confusing years of 3 wheelers and driving licences. Circa 1960-1970.

Reverse Gear:
Up until 1963 only people with a full car licence could have a reverse gear on a 3-wheeler. Motor cyclist licence holders with no car licence had to have the reverse gear blanked off if it was fitted.

A full motorcycle licence allowed a person to drive a three wheel vehicle
The blanked off reverse requirement was removed from law in 1964. Reason. Lack of mobility was dangerous.

No vehicle, motorcycle or tricycle over 250cc could be driven at the age of 16, so three wheelers were excluded.

Early 1960's changes to driving licences meant no vehicle over 250cc could be driven on a provisional. (Typo error original said 50)

Originally to drive a 3-wheeled vehicle on a motorcycle licence you would have had to have passed a full motorcycle test.

The law didn't catch up with changes to 3 wheel design.
The very first Reliants had the driver sat in the middle of the vehicle astride the engine. In 1936, the Reliant seating had also been changed to a more conventional side by side seating in the front.

Fixed penalty motoring laws came into force in 1988, before that motoring offences were heard in a Magistrates Court. The police did not have the powers to apply fines, endorse or remove licences.

Penalties for driving offences would start with a "ticket" from a Police officer. The offence would be reported to the Chief Constable (in name only, it was a Department) who would decide whether or not to proceed to Court.

It was not uncommon for Police Officers, (during the time period being discussed) to have limited knowledge of all motoring laws and would sometimes issue a "ticket" to show they were doing their job but would leave it to the Chief Constables Office to decide.

and so Mister Bridger, your friend was breaking the law. However, if he was never stopped and or prosecuted then as far as he was and is aware he was not acting illegally, just in ignorance. Ignorance may not be an excuse but it does enable one to break a law and not feel any guilt.

Typo corrected 11 October

[JohnDale]

Hi folks,an earlier version



How things change through the years,cheers,JD.
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1958 Ford Zephyr Mk2 Convertible
1976 Ford Granada Ghia.

[lowdrag]

I remember that some three-wheelers, in particular the Trojan, had 2-stroke engines that started in reverse if you wanted, so you had three forward and three reverse gears. In 1963 we had someone come regularly to my Dad's pub with one, and he had L plates on it.

[Peter_L]