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F1?
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buzzy bee
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:07 pm    Post subject: F1? Reply with quote

Hi

Any views on this appeal about a certain Mr Hamilton, apparently his oppositions fuel was too cold!

Has this got any sustenance????

Cheers

Dave
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 21179
Location: North-west UK

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seems that it could affect the density of the fuel in the Williams and BMW Sauber, which could theoretically give them a slight advantage - or so I read anyway.

All seems a bit tenuous, and I doubt even the most ardent Hamilton fan would want him to grab the title in the courts after the final race. IMHO Kimi well deserved it, if only for getting his head down and doing the job, rather than blathering in the press and causing ructions like the Mclaren pair (FA mainly).

R
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Rick (OCC Admin)
Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cold fuel is an old racer trick. The idea is that when it is cooled down enough, it becomes denser, and the volume shrinks. In this way its possible to get more fuel in the tank....Used to be used a lot with motorcycle racers....

Are there no racers here......??? Laughing

UJ
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Stuchamp
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uncle Joe wrote:

Are there no racers here......??? Laughing
UJ



How about an old retired one Very Happy
We used to use "cool cans" on the old drag cars and I think some classes still do. Basically a can with coiled tubing inside that you would add ice to before each run.
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 21179
Location: North-west UK

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

only today I read about a guy who does drag racing, and he has a cool can that does the same thing

R
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Rick (OCC Admin)
Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
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Scotty
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave - The colder your fuel charge the greater the HP achieved.

I was listening to a radio interview, with Eddie Jordan I think, and he reckoned that with the fuel chilled as reported then it was good for another 10 HP at least, and that would make the difference in "evenly" matched cars.

I was involved in rally sport in the early 1980's and believe me the number of "improvements" one would hear about was quite remarkable - and obviously well worth the risk when millions of $'s was at stake. One example, and "no names, no pack drill" was a plumbed in fire extinguisher system (which was obligatory under international rally sport rules) in one car that was actually filled with Nitrous Oxide, where the only discharge nozzle that worked was the hidden one into the carb.

Anybody remember the Toyota team being found out with what was probably the most perfect "improvement" of all time, and one that resulted in them pulling out of international rallying?
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Rick
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember there being a hoo-haa about Toyota a while back (with the Celicas?) but I don't recall the details!?

R
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Rick (OCC Admin)
Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
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Penman
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
Have you noticed how some engines perform better when there is moisture in the air?
I believe someone devised a water injection system to improve performance and I certainly read somewhere that Merlin engines had such a system for use during boost settings.
I don't know what the physics are but suspect it might be something to do with lowering inlet temperatures.
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Water injection is used to lower combustion chamber temperatures. It was indeed used on some Merlin engines, to give a little more power at Take off, and to raise operational height as well I believe.

It really only works well on Supercharged / turbocharged engines though...but for anybody who wants to try it on their classic, rocket science it isnt....

UJ
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Rick
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

did the Saab water injection do a similar job, or was that for another benefit?

R
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Rick (OCC Admin)
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no expert on SAAB's, but if I remember correctly, water injectiion was used on the 99's until they discovered intercoolers, which does the same job as water injection.

Technology takes a long time to reach these parts sometimes..... Laughing

UJ
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Scotty
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick wrote:
I remember there being a hoo-haa about Toyota a while back (with the Celicas?) but I don't recall the details!?


This is a quote from the period -

"It's the most ingenious thing I have seen in 30 years of motorsport." admitted FIA President Max Mosley after an extraordinary meeting of the FIA's World Council convened following technical reports on Toyota from the Catalunya Rally."



I saw the technical drawing of the bypass mechanism and hand on my heart it was a magnificent piece of engineering. If only TTE had put that effort into legal improvements who knows how the face of world rallying would look today. This is a link to the full story - http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm

Sadly though Toyota dropped out of rallying shortly afterwards and having recently owned a new Avensis T Spirit it appears any kind of exciting technical improvements are frowned upon because whilst being the most reliable car I've ever owned in nearly 35 years of motoring, it was (is) without doubt the most boring car I've ever driven - faultless, yes, engaging, no.

Scotty. Wink
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Scotty
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uncle Joe wrote:
........ but if I remember correctly, water injectiion was used on the 99's until they discovered intercoolers, which does the same job as water injection.


Years ago now, I very briefly had the use of a friend's 99 with water injection, a main dealer's ex-demonstrator and it was ......... very quick!

The only down-side was I had to keep remembering to fill the water tank up! Rolling Eyes
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scotty, what you should have done when you had the 99 is not use pure water, but a 50/50 mix of alcohol and water... Shocked


UJ
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Penman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
Uncle Joe wrote:
Scotty, what you should have done when you had the 99 is not use pure water, but a 50/50 mix of alcohol and water... Shocked
UJ

ABSOLUT ly?
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