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Front Hubs
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3656
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:56 pm    Post subject: Front Hubs Reply with quote

https://mg-parts-spares.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/tfrontsusaxle-1-1200x844.jpg

Could I pick the assembled brains on this?

. I have replaced the n/s front hub onto the spindle but I am unable to tighten the castellated nut (left hand thread) without the hub binding.

Surely it is not right to back off the nut to free it up? These are straight ball races - not taper rollers so I would have thought they should have more of a pre load?
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6299
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could take small amounts of thickness off the nuts on an oil stone.

Peter
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 litre saloon


Last edited by peter scott on Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1395
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure straight ball races should be pre-loaded?
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Ford Mustang coupe, 1967, 6 cylinder auto.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3656
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am probably using the wrong terminology. I have read that the hub nut needs to be tightened to 110/120 ft - lb. I can't do it up to much before the hubs starts to bind. There is a spacer tube and I have read that this could have worn down. I don't know how it can do that but I suppose if the bearing is spinning on it's seating it could?

Anyhow, I will have to take out the bearings and see if anything becomes more obvious . I understand there is a spacer next to an oil seal which may also have worn somehow.

What I keep finding is that a p.o. did things which simply couldn't work. Not even safe.
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
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Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you investigated taper roller bearings that might fit in place of the balls bearings?
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Ford Mustang coupe, 1967, 6 cylinder auto.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3656
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alastairq wrote:
Have you investigated taper roller bearings that might fit in place of the balls bearings?


I bought a set of taper roller bearings for these hubs but I am not sure how to fit them. They have a 4lb pre load. I personally have no previous experience of these. Does it mean the nut is not done up very much?

What is the benefit of one kind over another? The ones fitted seem fine to me but I have yet to work out how they are removed. There seems no place to use a puller. Shocked
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Making small changes to the thickness of the nut allows you to tighten to a castellation that lets the split pin in without binding up the bearings.

I'm talking about removing material from the non-castellated side of the nut.

Peter
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
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Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.mg-cars.info/mgtd-mgtf1500-bbs/tapered-front-wheel-bearings-results-2017020517165410590.htm

Might be worth a read regarding tapr bearings [which won't involve pullers and swearing when removing brake drums?]
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Ford Mustang coupe, 1967, 6 cylinder auto.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3656
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter scott wrote:
Making small changes to the thickness of the nut allows you to tighten to a castellation that lets the split pin in without binding up the bearings.

I'm talking about removing material from the non-castellated side of the nut.

Peter


I may have given you the wrong idea, Peter.. My problem is that I can't tighten the hub much more than finger tight without it binding. If I do it up with the socket wrench It clamps up solid.

Something is wrong... but what? Hence my reference to a distance piece which I have read somewhere could be worn. It is available from the Octagon Club spares service. There is a gap behind the hub and it's mounting - so the fouling is not there.
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
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Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hi Folks,

Hopefully I can explain the process as I understand it and how I did this on my own TC.

First, never assume that the parts you have are the correct dimensions (lengths) as over the years hubs and/or spacers may have been replaced.

It is very important to measure and record the distance between the bearing seats in the hub. This can be done by measuring the overall length of the hub then subtracting the length from each end to the shoulder of the bearing counterbores. This will determine the exact length of spacer that goes between the bearings.

Measure and record any difference between the surface of the inner bearing race compared to the outer bearing race to be sure they are in the same plane, which they should be on the original style ball type bearings. Any discrepancies here need to be taken into account for the length of the spacer, either adding or subtracting to the length. Adding to the length is as simple as adding the appropriate thickness shim(s) or subtracting by machining the required amount.

After the length of the spacer is determined and adjusted a trial fitting should be done to verify the length of the spacer is correct.

Assemble the clean, lightly oiled (I use 3 in 1 oil for this step) bearings and spacer into the clean hub. Leave the seal out for now. Now assemble the hub onto the stub axle being sure to install the spacer with the large chamfer in the correct orientation. Next install the cupped washer, concave side towards the outside, then the nut. If the nut is just left finger tight it will prevent any axial movement of the inner races and spacer, however it will not apply any clamping force to the inner races and spacer. This is needed to prevent the inner races from rotating on the stub axle. Now, tighten to your desired torque, either 80 or 100 ft/lbs etc. Do not be concerned with alignment of the nut and split pin holes at this time.

One of three things will now occur, a) the hub will rotate freely and there will be no axial movement of the hub on the stub axle; b) the hub rotates freely but there is axial movement of the hub, which tells you the spacer is to long; or c) you can feel resistance/tightness when rotating the hub and no axial movement which means the spacer is to short. If your measurements were spot on and spacer was spot on, then your results will be per "a" as noted above. If the results are either "b" or "c" adjust the length of the spacer as necessary.

When the correct spacer length is achieved with the resulting free rotation & no axial movement accomplished you can now focus on the position of the nut in relation to a split pin hole. Any misalignment needs to be corrected by removing material from the mating surface (bottom) of the nut. I believe the stub axle is threaded 5/8-14 BSF, thus rotating the nut 1 flat moves the nut .012" axially along the stub axle. If you estimate how much the nut needs to be rotated to align with the split pin hole, you can calculate the amount required to be removed from the nut. This is a bit of trial and error here. Keep removing a bit more material from the nut until the nut aligns with the pin hole using the desired torque.

With all this completed, you can now dis-assemble the bearings from the hub. Clean everything , pack the bearings with grease and assemble into the hub remembering the spacer plus the shims as required, install the seal and you're ready to assemble back onto the stub axle along with the cupped washer and nut. Tighten to your chosen torque and install the split pin. Congratulate yourself for another job well done.

This procedure pretty much follows what Hugh mentions in his post's but perhaps with a bit more detail. However, I also left out some details regarding how some of the measurements are taken. I can go into greater detail including some pictures if you would like. It also assumes that you have or can obtain some basic measuring instruments plus a few that not everyone has, although I feel that anyone who is restoring a car (MG) should have, such as micrometers, dial vernier calipers etc.

Duncan,

If you are flattening out the cupped washer when tightening the nut something is terribly wrong. You will probably pull apart the stub axle before you compress or flatten the washer if everything is as it should be. When you tighten the nut and then back it off, all you are doing is introducing axial movement into the inner race/spacer set up. That is not good.

Due to manufacturing tolerances of ball bearings there will always be a bit of axial play in the bearings. This can be virtually eliminated by using tapered roller bearings. The process is essentially the same as for the ball type bearings except you want a bit of pre-load or pinch. This can be accomplished by shortening the spacer by a few thousands of an inch. I believe I shortened mine by .002". I find it easier to make a new spacer when doing this conversion. I leave it a bit long, .010" and assemble everything onto the stub axle as noted above and checking axial play. I then reduce the length of the spacer the same amount of the axial play minus a few thou. Measure twice, cut once comes into play here. I keep doing this until I get no axial play, them take off a final .002 for some pre-load. When doing this for the ball bearings it would be better to be a bit short than long, and I'm talking about .001/.002 max short. These range of tolerances can be achieved thru careful processes and proper measuring tools.

I hope this helps explain setting up front bearings for any MG, from pre-war cars thru the last MGB.

Best regards,

John


From
https://www.mgexp.com/forum/t-series-and-prewar-forum.46/tc-front-stock-wheel-bearing-nut-torque.2905679/

also
https://www.mgexp.com/forum/t-series-and-prewar-forum.46/tc-front-stock-wheel-bearing-nut-torque.2905679/page-2

Quote:
aring nut torque#21
ragtc Avatar
ragtc Bob Grunau
Mississauga, ON, Canada CAN
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1953 MG TD MkII
Feb 6, 2015 10:05 AM
Joined 5 years ago
378 Posts
Duncan , use 75 to 80 ft-lbs with the stock TC 5/8" BSF stub axle nut, dished washer, ball bearings, spacer and seal washer. Far too much garbage talk about the dished washer, it is obvious it is dished to clear the outer bearing race on the outer wheel bearing when the nut is torqued down. There is no "flattening " etc of the cupped washer involved. Do NOT loosen the nut to get to be able to fit the split pin. Go to next hole tighter or skim the back of the nut, or fit a shin spacer washer under the nut. When all is done, the nut must be TIGHT and the wheel should spin easily. If it does not spin easily, something else is wrong, not the nut torque.

Fitting tapered roller bearings, which I do on every car, is only a bit more trouble as you usually have to lengthen the bearing spacer with shims or make a new spacer so the wheel rotates freely with no play after nut is TIGHT to the same 75-80 ft-lbs torque. So, the basic concept is the same, TIGHT stub axle nut as this ensures all the components on the stub axle are in compression and the stub axle in tension. This strengthens the stub axle assembly as it effectively increases the outside diameter of the assembly, and hence the bending strength.

You can fit a smaller OD washer in place of the dished washer, as long as the OD does not touch the outer bearing race.
If I was using ball bearings, I would use sealed bearings and no messing with grease.

Mention has been made of a higher stub axle nut torque. I recommend 125 ft-lbs when using my new stub axle inserts and a 3/4"-NF nut. But, the concept is the same, lock everything up tight with a tight nut.

So the bottom line, NEVER run with a loose stub axle nut or without a proper length spacer. If you do, you risk breaking the stub axle as it is NOT designed for a loose nut.

I've owned TCs for over 50 years, driven 14,000 miles in a year, restored several, raced one for 10 years, never an issue with broken stub axles or loose wheel bearings etc. Do it right the first time.
Bob Grunau, Canada


Purely to assist?
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Ford Mustang coupe, 1967, 6 cylinder auto.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3656
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info Alastair. I will report back with progress...if any!
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1395
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At a glance, it seems the spacer might be worn [or modified by a PO?}...
Either way, if you do decide on taper bearings, the spacer [new or otherwise] will still need to be retained [to add stiffness to the spindle]...but for tapers, because of their construction, you may need to add steel shims?

I have balls on my Cannon's front axle....which is a Ford Y-type [spring-on-axle], which had Morris Minor[pre-WW2 type] hubs on the spindle...giving me a very small diameter PCD with 6 studs [or was it 5? Long time since I've had it apart]...to which I fitted a locally-machined wheel spacer/adaptor [not too thick]to take 3 studs for Michelin wheels [15 inch, 4.5J]...
6hus, a reet cobble-up...the Minor hubs had parallel ball races, with a 'coned] spacer..these were done up tight, then the nut emery'd down to bring castellation into line for splitty.
The grease seal was a felt type under a large brass washer [which fitted under the nut!]..which luckily took Bristol VR double deck bus hub felts..of which I had access to many new one's, being a bus driver at the time.
Seemed to work, nothing ever fell off....
Incidentally, the Cannon's steering arms bolted onto the rear of the spindle....[IE not integral arms like ford's items..prone to snapping]...sold as a modification by a certain Colin Chapman, wahhaaayy back when....
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Ford Mustang coupe, 1967, 6 cylinder auto.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3656
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and to think the only thing stopping the nut from coming off - and with it the hub and wheel - was a little split pin! Shocked
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1395
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The nut is done up tightly...but then, that's all that stops any wheel coming off.....even today?
[Ford Pop/Prefect/Anglia/Thames of the upright era, relied on the half shaft not snapping to prevent the rear wheels departing.

Which is why I [for one] invested nearly a 4 figure sum for some special steel half shafts to be made up...these ought not to snap! The splitty is to stop the nut turning.....emphasis by all the knowledgeable one's is, never loosen the nut to make the splitty fit.]
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Ford Mustang coupe, 1967, 6 cylinder auto.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1395
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mind, as happened to yours truly back in the early-twirly 1980s...with a Ford Coach..if the stub axle snaps, then the wheel, hub and brake drum come off, to bounce down the road & over a hedge onto a field.

When employed by HM military...[as a civilian]....vehicles and trailers were often given extra years of life by deep overhauling/re-building by outside contractors....
We had some LWB trailers...which had undergone the above.....the contractors, however, [possibly to save pennies? aka profit?]....removed the 'handed' wheel studs, and fitted all the same, right round the vehicle. but,they didn't actually tell anyone [or rather, put it into the manuals]....
Not surprisingly, one pair of wheels[two axles, 8 wheels] came off, bounced along a main road, and bunted into the front of an oncoming lorry...the driver of which was 'not amused'....
Cue enquiries..cue red faces...[not mine, I hasten to add], cue us civilian [instructors] writing up amendments to manuals as to driver procedures....
All hushed up..as usual..
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Ford Mustang coupe, 1967, 6 cylinder auto.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.
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View user's profile Send private message
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