Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[Ray White]

There is a book by Horst Schatch which details how to install lap belts on a T series MG but it entails welding brackets to the chassis. This is an option open to me as the chassis is currently bare but I am generally unhappy about taking a welder to the chassis.

What I have been considering is mounting the belts to an angle iron body support but I am advised that there is a risk that in the event of a substantial shunt the body could become detached from the chassis. There is some evidence that this may actually have happened to my car in the distant past. In that event the belts become useless and the steering wheel makes the fatal contact point.

If on the other hand the belts were fixed to the chassis, an impact severe enough to cause the body to depart the chassis could cause the belts to crush the wearer as the seat shifts forward against them.

Given that a rear end shunt is more likely than a frontal impact, my main concern is that without bumpers, the exposed rear mounted slab petrol tank is vulnerable - with fire or explosion being the biggest risk.

Some people say you are better off not being strapped into a car like this and hope for the best; not a view shared by the navigator!

I could do with some advice before going ahead (or not) with two point lap belts.

[Rick]

I was under the impression that lap belts weren't all that good for a car's occupants in the event of a shunt (at least when compared to the three-point type), which is why manufacturers switched to three-pointers. They may be preferable I suppose to not having any at all, but in a car with an ash framed body, I don't think I'd be relying too much on any in-built safety amounting to much to be honest.

RJ
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[emmerson]

Ray, I was once in hospital with an 18 year old lad who had been in a head on crash. He was in the middle back seat wearing a lap belt. The other four walked away from the crash. My young friend broke his back (fortunately, not his spine) and dislocated his knee as his forehead hit it as he was bent forward from the waist. He spent six months in hospital on a board until his back healed.
When I got out of hospital on recovery, one of the first things I did was remove the lap belts in my cars. The MOT man turns a blind eye.

[Ray White]

From those replies I will probably forget about lap belts.

What I tell 'she who must be obeyed' I don't know!

[mikeC]

Personally I would consider any sort of restraint in an ash-framed car as a total waste of time, but in your case, Ray, perhaps the fitting of a seat belt to the passenger seat would allow your wife to travel in confidence, even if the real safety effect is minimal?
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in the garage: a big empty space!
Recently departed: 1938 Talbot Ten, 1953 Lancia Appia, 1931 Austin Seven, 1967 Singer Chamois, 1914 Saxon, 1930 Morris Cowley, 1936 BSA Scout, 1958 Lancia Appia coupe, 1922 Star 11.9 ... the list goes on!

[Ray White]

I expect when it comes to it, she will make some excuse to not get in the car. I don't really have a problem with that because she is generally more than happy to follow in her 'modern'.

It doesn't do much for my self confidence though!

[alastairq]

I would point out, not all lap & diagonal belt set-ups are optimal or even, remotely ideal.

Indeed, I suspect many are purely box-ticking exercises?

For the last 20 years before I retired/ceased gainful employment,I worked as an Instructor, mainly on military LGVs...and the number of times I sustained heavy bruising to chest, or 'pulled a shoulder muscle'...due to being thrown forwards under over-heavy braking, I lost count of. The action of the diagonal belt allowing my body trunk to violently twist when thrown forwards. The diagonal prevent one side of the body moving, but not the other. No belt is going to be placed ideally with regards to one's body, since we ourselves move about whilst travelling....plus, it is the lap portion that dictates the belt tension, not the diagonal.

The best belt restraining system has to be a full harness, properly secured to the chassis or shell.
Roll over bars can also inflict injury, so best to wear a crash helmet whilst you're at it?
But, who wants the inconvenience of a full harness to deal with, every time one gets in or out of the car?

A lap belt is better than nothing. My Mustang has lap belts, front & rear....as standard...
For older [smaller, more close coupled?]. cars, the biggest problem for the driver will be the steering column....AKA assegai?

For the passenger, getting the name 'Lucas' imprinted mirror fashion on the forehead is also an issue.

Ash framed bodies appear to offer a good amount of protection to occupants....if the Morgan crash tests in Germany were anything to go by?

Perhaps it may be a better idea to remove any direct steering columns, and replace with more modern style of jointed column first? Especially if the steering box is almost level with the front of the front wheels...?

On my Dellow, such is the tight, close proximity of steering wheel, dashboard bottom, etc, that ...in a sudden stop, I doubt my body parts could travel forwards very much? More likely to have an issue with the brain carrying on forwards under sudden deceleration? As a bigger driver than optimal, I find I'm pretty much wedged on as is.
The passenger does have various grab handles to hang on to, however...
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Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
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Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.

[Keith D]

An interesting discussion regarding the fitting of seat belts in an older car.

In Western Australia, seat belts are compulsory PROVIDED the vehicle has mounting points provided by the manufacturer. Otherwise they are illegal. Therefore a car like my Austin A40 CANNOT legally have seat belts fitted whether I want them or not. It is quite legal to drive this car on the roads without any seat belts.

Keith
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1926 Chrysler 60 tourer
1932 Austin Seven RN long wheelbase box sedan
1950 Austin A40 tourer
1999 BMW Z3
Its weird being the same age as old people.
You are either part of the problem or part of the solution

[alanb]

Back in the 60s before seat belts were compulsory a friend of my ex brother in law had an accident in his MG TF and was thrown clear of the car breaking his leg, once back on the road he fitted seat belts to his new MGA but removed them after another friend was killed during a trials event when his TR 3 that had seat belt overturned crushing him, my brother in laws friend said he would rather be thrown clear and break a leg anytime. I have a 1937 Morris 8 two seater it doesn't have seat belts and I don't intend fitting them as the structure is not designed for them and in an accident I would rather not be tied into something that might totally disintegrate.
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old tourer


Morris 8 two seater

[alastairq]

Probably the best idea is to fit a roll over bar, secured to the chassis?
Then at least, if a roll over occurs, there will still be enough room for folks' heads?
Dellow has a roll over bar fitted..mainly because it spent some years in the USA being raced under ..I think...SCCA rules.

Done simply, without any gucci trim, a roll over bar can be unobtrusive as far as appearances are concerned.
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Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
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Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.

[norustplease]

I and quite a few others have fitted seat belts into my Citroen Traction. Whether these are in reality, likely to be effective in a crash is open to conjecture, but the psychological effect especially for a passenger not used to being driven around in an antique car, is quite beneficial.
I think that you have to accept that a classic, especially a prewar one, has to be driven defensively, possibly in the way that you would ride a motorbike, especially since increasingly modern car drivers tend to press on as if they are driving in a computer game rather than conducting several tons of machinery down a real road.
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1953 Citroen Traction
1964 Volvo PV544
1957 Austin A55 Mk 1
Boring Tucson SUV

[Ray White]

This MG TD had been fitted with 3 point seat belts that seem to blend quite well. The 'over the shoulder' strap must be attached to the rear inner wing/wheel arch which is where the seat back is fixed.

These MGs seem to behave reasonably well in a front end collision (as far as safety is concerned) They have a light, rather flimsy, chassis which tends to absorb any impact and collapse before the bulkhead.

As I mentioned before, a rear end shunt could quite easily rip the Ash frame off the chassis but in my opinion, one needs to fear the proximity of the exposed petrol tank far more!!

I quite like the three point belt set up (as is the supercharged car above) but if I was really cleverI could fit a small air bag into the steering wheel boss! Only joking.