Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[norustplease]

So, back from our travels, put the last of the bits back onto the Beetle, put a gallon of fresh E5 into the tank and turned the key. It cranked and spat and then started and ran. Happy days! Then it stopped and would not restart and in spite of my efforts would only produce the odd burp. First thought was that there was a petrol blockage, but removing the fuel line and putting the open end into a jar and then cranking showed a healthy flow. Fuel cutoff solenoid gives a happy click when energised, taking the top off the carb shows a full float chamber and a good squirt from the accelarator pump outlet. So fuel supply largely exonerated.
But, when detaching a plug lead and clipping onto a spare earthed plug....no spark.
Now this car has a Pertronix type after market electronic ignition system, where a small module replaces the points within the distributor, so the search rather grinds to a halt at this point. It was not necessary to remove the connections from coil to module for engine removal, so it is unlikely that we have done something to accidentally fry the module. So the finger points at the coil.
So what next? I could replace the coil and then find that the module itself has a fault, although the occasional pop does suggest that we get an odd spark coming through here and there. Or is it just a rotor arm malfunction? Checking and re-checking does indicate that all plug leads are in the right order and the arm on the rotor points in the expected direction when the engine is turned to tdc.
At the moment I have retired from the battle temporarily , to consider my next move and also to catch up on a few more more mundane jobs. I am strongly tempted to return the car to a points installation with a new coil, which will at least give me a set of further diagnostic opportunities.
Watch this space.
I have also discovered that I am short of a vac take off on the carb. I have a vac advance distributor which uses the one take off point. There should be another available to operate a flap in the air cleaner setup, but there aint one. So, I suspect that this car left the factory with an 009 type distributor which was centrifugal advance only. These were notorious for creating the famous VW Beetle flat spot at low revs and were mainly replaced in later years by a vac advance unit, which my car has, albeit a Pertronix version.
A replacement manifold often has an extra nipple to take a vac outlet, mine does not. So a longer term mod will be to remove the manifold and have it drilled and tapped to take an outlet.
I am resigned now to the fact that taking on a car that has hardly been used for 20 or more years is now turning into a total re-commission. Hopefully my reward will be a car that only requires normal maintenance in the longer term.
_________________
1953 Citroen Traction
1964 Volvo PV544
1973 VW Beetle 1303L
Boring Suzuki SX Hybrid

[Ray White]

Goodness, you have been kept busy with that Beetle! It sounds like if it can go wrong, it will.

I am more than a little familiar with "mission creep". I have now come to the conclusion that it is probably better to only cross a bridge when you come to it.

[norustplease]

It has been something of a trial although I havent been working continuously on it. But I think that 'mission creep' is the risk that accompanies a car that is not used fully for years, even one with low mileage. Things that deteriorate with low levels of use, like oil seals, etc. are an inevitability. The fuel lines would surely have been replaced if the car had been given more than a quick MOT at the village garage for several consecutive years and the slipping clutch would probably not have been in evidence for many more miles if the car had just been used for local short trips and replacement was fairly straightforward. But a non starter with electronic ignition is a puzzle and you either spend a fortune randomly replacing bits or revert back to standard, which again is a cost, but a far more modest one.
We will plug on in the hopes, rather like yourself, of ending up with a good reliable end product.
_________________
1953 Citroen Traction
1964 Volvo PV544
1973 VW Beetle 1303L
Boring Suzuki SX Hybrid

[JC T ONE]

Some times the rotor arm can crack on the underside.

This can be hard to see, and then the spark goes into the disitributer.

Also check that the idle section of the carb isnt blocked.
_________________
http://www.eurods.eu/wp/index.html

[norustplease]

Ditching the Pertronix module and substituting a set of old fashioned points and a condenser and the car fired up and ran quite happily. Haven't had time for a drive yet, but will have a go tomorrow pm.
Noticed also that the original coil is an oil cooled one which has been mounted (as in most Beetles,) nose down, which is asking for leaks. I have substituted a resin cored unit, which can be mounted at any angle, and will better survive the hot environment, based on my experiences with the coil on the A55 leaking and overheating.
_________________
1953 Citroen Traction
1964 Volvo PV544
1973 VW Beetle 1303L
Boring Suzuki SX Hybrid

[alastairq]

'Scuse for asking but.....is the Pertronix module simply a Hall effect sensor, and a round magnet which slips over the distributor cam?

Or is the system a setup of magic boxes as well?

I ask because the Hall sensors [like points] don't last forever.
They can suffer from heat damage internally, and are not fixable.

I have had a recent failure-to-proceed in my Dellow, which has a Ford 100E engine, and I fitted a Powerspark hall sensor set-up, to replace points and condenser...which, if using today's items, can be of dodgy quality, not lasting as long as they once would do...some 12 years ago. I have driven a few thousand miles in the intervening period, without issue.
These sensors can be tested..they are, quite simply, switches activated by external magnets [the round thing slipped over the dizzy cam]

Connecting the two leads of the sensor to a meter can determine whether the sensor makes & breaks as a magnet is waved in front of it.

I carried a sare dizzy plate complete with points & condenser..a simple swap over [2 screws] and I was on my way once more.
I ordered a replacement kit from Powerspark, and fitted it the other day..works fine.

But, like anything electrical these days, one cannot guarantee the quality of the internal components....They will be what the importer specifies from the factory in China.

However, these modules can be tested....in case the failure really is 'somewhere else?'
On the road, a 12 volt test lamp, connected up to the module will tell one if the switch is working or not as well. In situ, so to speak.

One point I'd make though..I dod not buy the kit which comes complete with a new distributor..I simply fitted it to the existing distributor.
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.

[norustplease]

This was a Pertronix distributor fitted at some point by the previous owners. So, I have no way of knowing when it was fitted or how old it might be and it certainly worked fine when I first started using the car last December. I have retained the Pertronix distributor and will do some tests. A way of testing on the bench is shown in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXfm4_frgOc&t=269s
It is as you suggest, a Hall effect unit with a circular magnet slid over the central spindle. It was operated by a Flamethrower coil, but there are no other control boxes, etc.
Its sudden demise does seem odd, it started the car when first tested after reinstalling the engine, but then after running slightly roughly for a few minutes it stopped and showed no inclination to restart.
General view both online and with a seasoned mechanic friend is that the most common failure is that of grounding issues, especially if the unit fails when hot. Apparently resistance increases when hot. However, in my case, although it was a warm day the engine was stone cold having been sat on the garage floor for a week or more and did not run for long enough to heat up to that extent, I would have thought.
However, I am aware that many who experience failure get little or no warning and the car just packs up regardless of whatever is happening. In my case all of the internal wiring to earth, etc. in my distributor apoeared intact.
_________________
1953 Citroen Traction
1964 Volvo PV544
1973 VW Beetle 1303L
Boring Suzuki SX Hybrid

[alastairq]

Have you tested the coil windings?

{Is the coil oil cooled, or full of resin?]
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.

[ukdave2002]

Coils of any sort rarely fail, electronics in a car that has a dynamo or electromechanical regulation (not sure if yours does) is asking for trouble unless additional protection is applied.
Coils that do fail, frequently do when they get hot, or in moderns when they are working at much higher voltages and the insulation breaks down, when I ran a modern on lpg, changing coil packs became part of routine servicing.
Simple continuity tests may be inconclusive.

[norustplease]

It was an oil cooled coil, no leaks visible, but definite sounds of sloshing when shaken. Replacement is now a resin coil. The Ignitor could have been swapped out as a test as well as being tested itself, but at over a hundred pounds for the module, swapping it is an expensive experiment. I will stick with the points for the moment.
The car has a dynamo with 'traditional 'regulation.
When diagnosing there was definitely no spark, so it looked from early days that it was an ignition issue. I got the occasional spit as if I was getting an odd spark, but that was all. I replaced the whole lot, distributor and coil, because I was getting fed up with fiddling and experimenting while the car remained unusable.
_________________
1953 Citroen Traction
1964 Volvo PV544
1973 VW Beetle 1303L
Boring Suzuki SX Hybrid

[alastairq]

40-odd quid for the basic kit from Powerspark...sensor on a plate, magnets & wires.

What about the rotor arm? If a black one, could that have been the problem?
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.

[JC T ONE]

[norustplease]

The rotor arm was a red one.
It was a cheaper fix to replace the whole distributor with a points type, than to replace the ignitor assembly in the existing distributor. The first drive, post new clutch, was excellent. Biting point still a bit higher than I am used to, but okay. I have spent today cleaning the various light units, some of which were quite dusty inside for some reason. The bulbs were all separately tested and were all okay.

Finally a wash and a coat of wax in anticipation of some rain this weekend. It was surprising how dusty the car had got whilst convalescing in the garage, not to mention all of the greasy finger prints around its rear end!

Hopefully a bit of Beetling around next week when Summer returns.
_________________
1953 Citroen Traction
1964 Volvo PV544
1973 VW Beetle 1303L
Boring Suzuki SX Hybrid