Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[peter scott]

Hi ON,

I really know nothing about painting but talking to a restorer recently (whose work is exceptionally good) I discovered that he uses water based paint and applies all but the final coat with those small paint rollers. I guess this greatly reduces one's ingestion of the stuff and also the possibility of nasty runs.

HTH

Peter

[Old-Nail]

Hi Peter,
That's an interesting method of application. Unfortunately, the really noxious stuff that prevents the DIY-er from using modern paints tends to be in the topcoat or clear coat as it would be for the chap mentioned above.

Plus I suspect that fellow has a great deal of patience, which is sadly lacking in my character!
I have brush painted three of my 2cv's in the past, it is slow, laborious, and seemingly endless task, the finish is marred (in my case) by becoming fed up of the task before completion and thus rushing it just to see the back of it.

[Uncle Joe]

I asked a Safety Officer - is that the correct term? - about isocyanates. The answer was this. As you have probably heard, they build up in the bloodstream, and may possibly cause cancer. The biggest problem with them however is that they are very prone to causing allergic reactions. When a new machine was recently installed where she is employed, all of the operators had to be tested first. A fail meant that they were not allowed to use the machine...

I'm still thinking that for home use, with limited facilities, water based is the best alternative, professionally cleared with 2K. dont forget that WB's are low VOC, and therefore should be healthier. But isnt that what they said about asbestos?

[bob2]

[Uncle Joe]

Id like to pass a comment here, it may be alittle off topic, but I'm hoping that it will make people think.

I mentioned a while ago that a top quality paint job, and I mean top of the line, could take up to 400 hours. At say £30 per hour for labour, that would be around £12k! If you used aerosols, what would a paint job cost? To make things easy, lets say £120. In other words, the dear job costs 100 times more. Now, ask yourselves a question. Is one paint job worth a hundred times more than another?

[Old-Nail]

[Uncle Joe]

Yes, I fully understand what you are saying. possibly more so than a lot of others here. To see my own father, an ex-miner die of an industrial disease was not a pleasant thing. Due to this, I had to stop myself giving a right good b******ing to someone on here the other day (not Ricky!)...so I hope that person is following this thread!

Sometimes, I wonder about the safety standards that are set before us by pro's. Watch some car TV, eg Overhaulin' or American Hot Rod. Consider that they very rarely use the correct safety equipment. Then think how many people would emulate them....

[Old-Nail]

As to the above post you made UJ regarding the costs. I've just been made persona-non-grata on the 2cvGB website forum due toexpressing that very sentiment!
I asked what the cost of a respray would be and why, the answers I got varied from '£500 but started to fail after 12 months' to £4000 by a professional.
I then asked the 'professional' how long his respray was guaranteed for? The answer came back that it wasn't, 'you just have to look after it'. This seemed a strange thing to say to someone who had just paid £4000 for a respray.

The conversation went like this:

Me: "What then, was the difference between the 500 quid job and the 4K job?"

Pro: "Preparation" they said...'lots of it.'

Me: "I see, so the time consuming prep work is the factor in price as obviously the paint cost is no different ? (even though I have no roof to paint)

Pro: "Yes, that has to be done for a proper job, that's why it's 2-4 grand!"

Me; "Presumably then the £500 job is cheaper but also fails sooner because of poor prep work, and your charges reflect this?"

Pro; "Correct".

Me: " Given that you charge eight times as much, how come you don't give any guarantee then? I don't expect the job to be guaranteed for eight times as long (although I don't see why not) but surely a guarantee of more than the 12 months the other guy's cheap paint job would last is easily done?"

Pro; "We can't guarantee work because we don't know what is underneath the existing paint"

Me: " You mean to say that the extra £2-£3500 you are asking for in prep work doesn't actually include establishing what you are painting over? Then how do you know that your repaint will last any longer than the cheap one?"

Pro: "You're talking bare metal respray now..Would you like to ring around and get a quote for a bare metal respray? I quote for a respray, do you know how much my overheads are? etc etc..."

Me: "But my car is only worth £1200 or so, I can't justify a £2-4000 respray on it!...I just want it to look clean and tidy"

Pro: "Well go buy a Brush and a tin of Dulux"

Me; "But you have justified the cost of your respray by saying the Eight times more that you charge was down to additional prep work, now you tell me you don't do much more than the cheap re-spray man, and neither do you guarantee your expensive job to last as long...so why should we pay it?"

Pro: "Look, I'm F**king sick of blokes like you wanting a respray on the cheap, that's what they cost, and if you can't afford it go buy the Dulux!"

Me: No, I'll just find someone with enough confidence in their workmanship to be able to say with certainty that it would outlast a vastly cheaper one, for your price I could have it resprayed every 12 months in that case buy the cheaper fella!...and that would last me eight years"

In holding this conversation I have, in the 'kick one they all limp' environment of the 2cv world alienated myself from the community...further posts on other topics are met with silence!

[Greeney in France]

Probably because they know you are right
4000 for a respray is robbery I just bought the paint for my 2CV fourgon 321€ that makes about 3680€ rubbing down
_________________
www.OldFrenchCars.com

We do these things not to escape life but to prevent life escaping us

[Old-Nail]

Even accepting the bulk of the cost is down to the prep work and not the materials, what the pro seemed to be saying was that he will charge you between 2 and 4 grand, but the prep work that justifies this cost isn't actually done!
The discussion became quite heated later but I did manage to refrain from any insulting or sarcastic remarks, something which couldn't be said of the other two protagonists who were 'professionals'.

It's a sign of the situation within the UK '2cv Specialist' scene that a major player should react to my queries in this fashion. Also the several private messages of support that I received display agreement in the point that I was making, but an unwillingness to upset the chap that was ripping them off!

[Uncle Joe]

O-N, I found this link for you this morning. Even though it applies to 2k paint, it should be a good help to you. Personally, I find the info absolutely bang on the old nail...(sorry, couldnt resist! )

Look at the amount of material used, and it isnt a really big car....add labour to this price, and you will see the reason the £4000 guy couldnt give a guarantee...its just an overpriced cowboy job, methinks!

[bob2]

u forgot to add the link UJ

I agree with ON. I took the hunter to a cheaper guy and got a result that was not so bad, there are a few blemishes but nothing that drastic and with some wet n dry many blemishes were taken off but some preparation work has not been that good in certain places but so what, I did not want a perfect car or a show car, I wanted a car that I could use and would not be bothered using in all weathers and leaving in a car park for instance!!
The panel beating, rust cutting and spray job cost me Lm400 (around GBP700) and I paid for the paint an extra Lm50 (GBP85) cause I wanted to choose it myself to get as closest a colour match as possible and it has been achieved.

I think nowadays paint (topcoats) are overrated, its whats underneath that counts mostly!!
As I said previously I am rollering the interior and am trying to get a reasonable finish, have done so before with some furniture and obtained very good results, the finish was not far off looking as if it was sprayed on, so I decided to take that route with this car as well!!
If I do restore another car some day I may try doing it all that way if I get an acceptable finish this time and save myself lots of money and masking!!!

[Uncle Joe]

So I did....

Lets try again:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0804phr_76_camaro_body_work_and_paint/index.html

[Old-Nail]

I know what you're saying with that article UJ, lots of prep and materiel but this was for a 'show' car, and I don't want a mirror like finish with lustrous metalflake on my £1200 Citroen 2cv

Remember the days when you could have a car resprayed cheaply? The painter usually left the glass in and masked the door handles etc, there were always tell tale over spray marks here and there to give the game away that it hadn't been done 'properly'.
The effect was to tidy up a faded and tired looking- but basically sound bodyshell and panels, it gave the car an additional few years of looking respectable rather than falling steadily into the 'old banger' category. Well that's what I want now, the difference is the glass and everything trim wise on mine have already been removed so it will never be easier to do...no dismantling and no rebuilding, just paint it!

Today, asking someone to provide that simple service is akin to asking them to explain the theory of relativity, I've never heard so much sucking through teeth on why the prices are so high, if the standard of job I want on a low value vehicle can be done in 100 man hours, (not to show standard) then why do more?
Perhaps the era of the car owner maintaining and extending the life of his vehicle, like the simple changing of a headlamp bulb, have been made obsolete by modern practices, and thereby reinforcing the attitude of 'throw it away and buy another?' Unfortunately for us, that's the very reason that we hold on to our cars, and now they seem to have to fall into the 'show car' category when we come to have them re-painted.

[Uncle Joe]

I understand the way that you are thinking O-N, I really do, and I think that you are correct.

The method described is, I think, the best way. The way that a REAL pro would do things. If I left any of my cars out to a pro, then this is the way I would expect it to be done. Which is the reason I dont...

Do you think that the pro you had your discussion with on the other forum would do this kind of quality for the quoted price? I seriously doubt it. Thats the real reason he wont give a guarantee. As I said before, a cowboy, and a high priced one at that.