Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[Rdover]

I was asked yesterday about the legality of driving my 96 year old car with my kids as passengers given that they under 14 years old.

Does anyone know the legal position about unsecured passengers in a car that not only did not have seatbelts but actually cannot have them.

I'm almost afraid to ask the question on basis that is better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission
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Richard

[Dirty Habit]

I would have thought that if it was registered before 1st Jan.1965 and there is no requirement to have belts fitted. it cannot effect the children carried in the car.
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1964 International Harvester

[Rick]

I'd be interested to know more about this too!! I can fit a kiddy seat into the Cambridge as it has front (static) belts, but unless I chop the Devon about a bit to mount belts in it, I dont think young Harley can go in that one for a while

R
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[Rdover]

hmmm

according to http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/advice/seatbelts.htm my 9 year old daughter who is 137cm tall is OK but my 7 year old is too small. It seems that the issue is height rather than age.

I've worked on the basis that if they are not big enough to hold on or keep themselves on the seat then they are not big enough to join me. This will be less of an issue next year when the car will have it's new 4 seater body. I may be able to fit in a pair of lap belts and hide the mountings under the [removable] squab but there's not chance in the front.

quote from the site

The law

In law:

* You must wear a seat belt in cars and goods vehicles where one is fitted. There are very few exceptions to this. The driver is liable to prosecution if a child under 14 years does not wear a seat belt or child restraint.
* You must not carry an unrestrained child in the front seat of any vehicle.
* Children up to 135cms in height must use the appropriate child restraint when travelling in any car, van or goods vehicle - there are very few exceptions.
* A child may use an adult belt when they reach 135cm or the age of 12.
* In buses and coaches with seat belts fitted, passengers aged 14 years and above must use them. Passengers on vehicles used for public fare-paying passengers on 30mph roads are exempt.


I'm still unclear though, if the car only has front seats and does not require them for historic reasons are you prohibited from carrying under 14 yr old children?
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Richard

[Rdover]

hmmm

according to http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/advice/seatbelts.htm my 9 year old daughter who is 137cm tall is OK but my 7 year old is too small. It seems that the issue is height rather than age.

I've worked on the basis that if they are not big enough to hold on or keep themselves on the seat then they are not big enough to join me. This will be less of an issue next year when the car will have it's new 4 seater body. I may be able to fit in a pair of lap belts and hide the mountings under the [removable] squab but there's not chance in the front.

quote from the site

The law

In law:

* You must wear a seat belt in cars and goods vehicles where one is fitted. There are very few exceptions to this. The driver is liable to prosecution if a child under 14 years does not wear a seat belt or child restraint.
* You must not carry an unrestrained child in the front seat of any vehicle.
* Children up to 135cms in height must use the appropriate child restraint when travelling in any car, van or goods vehicle - there are very few exceptions.
* A child may use an adult belt when they reach 135cm or the age of 12.
* In buses and coaches with seat belts fitted, passengers aged 14 years and above must use them. Passengers on vehicles used for public fare-paying passengers on 30mph roads are exempt.


I'm still unclear though, if the car only has front seats and does not require them for historic reasons are you prohibited from carrying under 14 yr old children?
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Richard

[Rdover]

Just spotted this further down the same page

Children 3 years and over can only travel in the back of a vehicle without seat belts (e.g. a classic car) and those under 3 years cannot be carried at all.

So it seems that we can carry under 14 yr old kids but only in rear seats .... but I don't have rear seats ....
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Richard

[Dirty Habit]

So I wonder how you get on with a van or in my case 1964 pick up truck. I still think that the law on children and belts can only be applied to vehicles that either must have belts or pre 1965 vehicles that have had belts fitted. Lets face it, if you have belts, you would be daft not to use them, but would after market belts that are not securely fitted could be dangerous in themselves.
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1964 International Harvester

[buzzy bee]

Ah you would be ok to drive with them, if you get stopped surely you just get a warning the first time.

I would think a regular copper would not be interested in seatbelt laws and more interested in the car.

A friend was driving around llandudno in there 1912 charabanc and 1901, and 1898 not so long ago and they had someone under 14 in the car, facing forward on the front seats I am sure, I think I have a pic, and the police never stopped them.

Also if you can trundle down the road in a coal bunker on an engine and get away with it why can't you sit in a seat!

Cheers

Dave

[stuchamp]

We ran into this problem last Friday night when our 2 year old granddaughter wanted to ride to the car show with us in the '57 Chevy wagon.

The wagon doesn't have rear belts or anything to hold her child seat so I used a 3 inch wide boat hold-down strap that wrapped horizontal around the rear wagon seat back and thru the child seat to hold it in place. I then took off the rear shock covers on the cargo floor of the wagon and attached an aviation cable to both upper shock mounts. The top hold-down belt of the child seat then attached to the cable. This way the child seat was secured both horizontal & vertical plus the seat back itself could not fold down.

Later, when I have more time, I'm going to mount eye-bolts thru the floor just below the seat back to attach the child seat much the same way as in modern cars.

[Giggles]

Our 2 are now on booster seats and it won't long before our lad is off his and using just the normal seat belt.

We fitted seat belts in our Super Snipe and found that our forward facing child seat worked fine with it and probably would have worked with a static belt as well. I think we've got static's in the back of the Fairlane, which work fairly well with their booster seats.
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1953 Humber Hawk
1955 Ford Fairlane
1960 & 1963 Humber Super Snipe's

[Penman]

Hi
I have been chatting with a colleague about this today.
We have come to the conclusion that the if fitted exception would apply to pre '65 (or whatever the date was when mountings became required) cars.
He was however of the opinion that a 2 seater precludes carrying of someone under 14 because of the Front seat/child rule.

However in the event of a crash a civil action for Lack of Duty of Care might be successful even in a non seatbelt fitted car.

Neither he nor I are prepared to carry people with an exemption certificate.

[Rdover]

Good point Penman, certainly something to consider
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Richard

[pigtin]

Ruddy 'ell I've been a naughty boy then. Many of the local children watched with fascination as I built my special. When it was finished I gave each of them a ride round the block in it. I also took my 11 year old grandson for trips in the special and Sprite.
Wife used to collect him from school in the 1932 Austin 10/4 because it 'improved his street cred' and the other kids were envious.

Are there any of the pleasures we had as kids left?

[marknotgeorge]

According to Highway Code rule 99, children between 3 and 1.35m in height (or 12 years old, whichever comes first) can sit in the front seat, but the correct child restraint for their height and weight MUST be used.

In the rear, the correct restraint must be used if a seat belt is available, although you can get away with just an adult belt in a taxi, in an unexpected short journey, or if 2 other child restraints prevent fitment of a third.

12 and 13 year olds (and under 12s who are over 1.35m in height) must use an adult belt if available, front or rear. This is the driver's responsibility. If over 14, the same rules apply, but it's the passenger's responsibility.

So it looks to me as if under 12s are ok in a 2 seat car, as long as belts are fitted. The 'if available' proviso only counts in the rear seats, and I note that it says 'available' not 'required to be fitted'.

[pigtin]

I really should read the highway code again. Seems there are some very tall children about.