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1930's Steering
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Timstopp



Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 95
Location: colchester, essex

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:22 pm    Post subject: 1930's Steering Reply with quote

My 1934 wolseley nine passed it's MOT today which was good BUT the there is something very wrong with the steering. There is real resistance at one point as you try to turn right, say 1/4 a turn of the steering wheel. When I look under the car, when someone else turns the steering wheel, the entire axle on the drivers side end moves fore and aft. It does this because the driver side road spring to which it attaches moves for and aft. The rear spring shackle has some sort of pivot and an extra spring, but I am unsure as to if the entire road spring should move like this or not?
Does anyone have any advice? or can explain how vintage steering works, or can point me in the right direction?

Thanks Tim
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Wolseley Nine 1934 Morris 8 tourer 1936
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6177
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tim,

Normally one end of the spring is fixed relative to the chassis but the other has to be able to move fore and aft because the spring lengthens when its curved shape straightens out going over a bump.

I wouldn't expect the axle to move fore and aft when turning the steering. It sounds like there is play in your fixed spring eye on the driver's side .

It seems that you have two problems: 1. That the axle is moving in response to the steering and 2. that there is stiffness.

You could check for the stiffness by setting the steering to the stiff position and then with the car jacked up in the middle of the beam axle just try moving the steering angle by man-handling the tyres. If there is a problem in one king pin then you'll probably sense the difference between the two sides. If the stiffness is in your steering box then you might find it easier to disconnect the drop arm or the drag link to test this. It could be that there is an adjustment in the steering box that has been set to remove play at straight ahead position but at the expense of stiffness elsewhere.

Perhaps a photo or two would help generate an explanation.

Peter
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Timstopp



Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 95
Location: colchester, essex

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter
Viz the spring movement, that would make sense, I did not know one end was not supposed to move! I assume that the static end is the front as the rear end of the spring has this spring arrangement - photo attached


I guess I need to take the front shackle apart. although I do not really see how it can avoid movement, as it is similar in design to the rear with the exception of the spring and extension. It consists of two plates and two bolts, so I would have thought that it would move quite easily? see this picture (although this is the rear shackle the front is the same)

It all makes rack and pinion seem so simple!

There is also a "drag link" which seems to have movement built into it, as it is fitted with a spring as well.....is the spring supposed to push hard against the ball or be a bit loose?
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tim,

I may be wrong but I think that your rear spring pivot is intended to be fixed and the thing with the little spring is an adjustment for setting the axle straight. So maybe you should check for play at that end.

As to your ball joint in the drag link, yes the spring is meant to press hard against the joint.

Peter
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I am wrong it's not an adjustment it's what's called a kick-shackle.

See: http://www.monaro.org/advanced_steering_and_wheel_alig.htm

I still think it should be largely fixed and there is something wrong if it allows axle movement in response to steering. The front should move when you bounce up and down on the car and the rear should stay still.

Peter
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Jim Walker



Joined: 01 Oct 2008
Posts: 124
Location: Chesterfield, Derbys.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a problem similar to this. The problem was in the drag link. The ball at one end had developed a flat and the screwed end cap had been adjusted to remove the play. The result was that it tended to jam in one particular drop arm position.

Jim.

Can't help with your peculiar spring set up though. Every leaf sprin I have ever seen has had the fixed shackle at the front.
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim,

I've never had any experience of kick-shackles so I don't really know how they are meant to act.

It is possible that turning the steering when the car is at rest is an unfair test. The forces needed are much greater than when running. I assume your drag link runs fore and aft and will thus push and pull on the axle.

Having said that, the forces generated by braking will be even greater still. Given that the kick-shackle is only on the offside I would have thought that the car would always pull to the right under heavy braking. Does this happen in practice?

Whilst you certainly don't want shimmy I think pulling of the brakes and
unpredictable steering are equally bad news. I'd be tempted to try and lock up the kick-shackle as much as possible. I suspect the nut on the
left of your photo will act to compress the little coil spring and thus limit the free movement of the shackle.

Peter
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Timstopp



Joined: 16 Oct 2008
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Location: colchester, essex

PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter
yes, actually what you say rings true, I thought the car would fail it's MOT because the brakes pulled to the right. The MOT test showed the retardation to be pretty equal.............
On closer inspection the spring arrangement on the rear offside shackle is so tightly wound that the "spring is practically solid" I wonder if the PO has tried to take up the movement in the shackle by over tightening it.
I think there is no option but for me to take apart the drag link, and both shackles to see what gives (maybe literally) I assume this is fairly straightforward with no hidden keys or techniques needed.

Thanks ever so much, you really have been most helpful.
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magic9r



Joined: 13 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If both shackles were free to move what would stop them slopping backwards & forwards and what will they hit/wear in doing so?
Regards,
Nick
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