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two stroke engines
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oldtimer
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:31 am    Post subject: two stroke engines Reply with quote

I was discussing this topic with a couple of pals and I expressed my view that,while I had enjoyed my early introduction to these engines,initially a
DKW (Sonderklasse,Ithink) and later the better known Saab 96,Ialways felt a sense of disappointment that there was some unfinished business,that some elements lacked engineering "elegance".
For example the use of "freewheel"to circumvent the possible lack of lubrication on overrun,on a trailing throttle,did not fill me with wonder.
It always surprised me that the whole question of separation of fuel and lubricant did not appear to have been addressed.
One of my chums recalled,vaguely, as we old fellows do that such an engine had been designed with the name Wulf but whether it became reality is not clear.
Another was described,again with fuel/lubricant separate,which had stepped pistons and transfer ports between adjacent cylinders and reed valves for fuel to the cylinders and for exhaust extraction.
Whether such an engine existed,either as a design concept or in reality,I know not but Iam confident that there are those fellow forum members who will confirm or debunk these issues.

Regards,
oldtimer
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Penman



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4850
Location: Swindon, Wilts.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
The Wulf is mentioned here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton_Commando but in view of who was developing it, I would think it was a 4 stroke.
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oldtimer
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:38 am    Post subject: two strokes Reply with quote

Hello Penman,
Thank you for the reply and link.Isuppose I should get to grips with the web but my efforts are very much those of the novice and unlikely to achieve anything like the fluency and lateral thinking which many of you achieve.
Regards,
oldtimer
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Ghost



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:03 pm    Post subject: Two stroke engines Reply with quote

Oldtimer,a couple points in your post about two strokes.
You mention the use of "freewheel"to circumvent the possible lack of lubrication on overrun,on a trailing throttle. On an off road motorcycle it's the air filter that bothers me. All of the air goes through the engine, what if the filter can't cope? Many years ago a friend of mine had a DOT scrambler with a Villiers engine. It needed a new piston and rings every third meeting, main bearings and seals twice per season, not cheap!
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oldtimer
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:09 am    Post subject: two strokes Reply with quote

Hello Ghost,
While a long term admirer of classic bikes as things of beauty I confess that I lacked the courage to use them but a good pal was a biker and I have ridden pillion on his Norton Dominator and informed him,on the last occasion,that,had he slowed down to 60 Iwould have got off!
I think you hit the nail on the head.When those involved know of possible shortcomings or that there could be a better way of doing things why not rise to the challenge sooner rather than later?
History must be littered with examples.NSU with the ;SAAB messing about with the 96 with that V4 which ruined the character of the original car.
oldtimer
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exbmc



Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 236
Location: Derby East Midlands

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:21 pm    Post subject: 2T Reply with quote

Years ago, "when I were a lad", there was a local garage who specialised in the DKW range you mentioned. not many folks remember them now, the Sonderklasse of course was the main one, but there was a little two seater called a Monza, which the garage boss used to race in local events. It usually seized up. One of my mates was an apprentice there, so I heard about it a lot. Often the first job on a Monday was to strip the Monza! As there was not too much trade for the "Deeks", as they were called, the garage also was a VW dealer, all beetles then of course.
There was one two stroke with separate oil supply, in the eighties, called an "Orbital". I think it was of Australian origin, and some Fiesta "mules" were ran by the police for evaluation. I thought it a rather good engine, and it used tiny amounts of oil, but I suppose the ever stricter emissions regs stopped it?
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Ghost



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too was a lad when the odd lonely Deek was loping about trailed by clouds of smoke. There were pretty though! Strong Teutonic styling, white steering wheels etc.

Can anyone remember the another unusual German make the NSU? There was an 1100 version of the Prinz, that was ugly but went like hell!

I've been told that a young man doing National Service in Germany could buy a German car tax free and personally import it into the UK, hence during the 1950's some of these cars got to the UK. Can anyone confirm this?

Another German car favourite for me, but I've never seen one in motion only in a museum, is the Goggomobil by virtue of the name alone!
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poodge



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 687

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ghost,I well remember the NSU range from the 60's ,as a mate's father had the sporty 1000TT model,later to become the 1000TTS.This is probably the model you were thinking of.The bigger engined one was the 110C,later the 1200C,but always fitted with a 1200CC engine.The earlier 110C's suffered from overheating,and this seems to have put a damper on it's popularity.The RO80 was the car that was going to save NSU,but rushed to market too quickly,it became the company's downfall.
Here's a link to NSU models:
http://www.nsuprinz.de/models/
I believe there's a couple of mistakes on this site,as AFAIK the TTS was the only 1000 model to have the 1200cc engine
To their eternal credit,the reason NSU went belly-up was honouring each and every warranty claim on the RO-80.They developed the NSU K-70,but this came too late,and was marketed by VW.
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peppiB



Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 686
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I owned an NSU 1000 CS from 1st August 1971 til 4th December 1972 when some woman clattered in to me. Very reliable, but the engine did run warm. It was the first car I had with a plastic fuel tank (come to think of it, it was the only one) and handling was improved with a bag of sand in the boot at the front.
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Keith D



Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 1164
Location: Upper Swan, Western Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

exbmc,

The Orbital you mentioned was an Australian thing. The Company was started by a guy named Ralph Sarich who had designed an "Orbital" engine. He managed to get a large company interested to put some money into the idea. (I think the company was BHP, but I wouldn't swear to that) The engine was well developed, and I think a few were built to power up pumps, but no car manufacturer ever used one. Sarich's Orbital engine company went on to revolutionise two strokes. I know that he provided some Ford Fiestas, suitable re-engined, to the British police, I think in Essex.

Ghost mentioned the mighty Goggomobile. A Goggo Dart featured on the front page of the Perth telephone book a number of years ago and became something of a celebrity and cult car, even though they are thin on the ground. This last year Shannons, an Australian classic car insurance company, have featured one in their adverts. They were powered with a Sachs 250cc two stroke motor.

Keith
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