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Brake Lining Rivets
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Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 927

PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UKD

I just remembered, a friend of mine was fettling up a Z van a while back and he got a s/h cylinder head from a Morris 8/10 specialist somewhere not far away - perhaps Mold way? when I next see him I'll ask if he has any contact details, perhaps they'd have the right rivets to hand

Rick
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UK, I think that the size of rivet that you are looking for should be a 9/64 dia x 7/16 long. The heads on these are 0,035-0,045 thick, and have a diameter of 0,289-0,303 (nominal 0,2969).

7/16 long is 0,4375" This is the nearest standard rivet that I can find with my suppliers.

How does that sound? Question

UJ
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Charles
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello UKdave

the rivets you describe were the most common size for light cars and vans,you will probably struggle today to get the imperial size, the metric replacement which is avalible today is 4mm x 10mm, I have a box and will happlily send you some. I used to be in the motor trade, retired 2 years ago, we got the occasional car where bonded shoes were not avalibale so always kept some matirial and rivets.

Best Regards

Charles
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charles: Correct me if I am wrong, but if the original rivets were 0.150" in diameter, and these are replaced by 4mm, then as 4mm is roughly 0.1575, then the brake shoe holes will have to be reamed out to do a correct job, will they not?
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buzzy bee
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Welcome along Charles, have you got any classics? and I bet you have got some good stories to tell us about your career in the motor trade!

Cheers

Laughing Laughing

Dave
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Charles
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I donít have any classics, too much like a bus mans holiday!
My main interest today is model engineering, I make small steam (and petrol) engines, and cut gears for a local clock repairer. I was interested on the ďbest ever engineĒ thread, I am no luddite and really appreciate the modern engineering in cars today, cylinder heads rarely come of car that have done less than 150,000 miles, you donít have to adjust much, the electronics are brilliant and generally very robust, I accept not as interesting for you chaps though !.
I was apprentice for one of the firms who supplied steering components to automotive manufactures, worked my way up from the lathes and milling machines in to the design office, then as the industry merged (BMC / Leyland Group) and seem to run the same models for longer it was obvious I was in a declining business. So set up my own engineering / garage business which I sold to one of the big tyre chains! No lathes now just stacks of exhausts and tyres !.
Whilst I donít own any classics (I drive a Peugeot Diesel, brilliant engines!) I do have an interest in them so will keep my eye on this forum.

Charles
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Charles
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uncle Joe wrote:
Charles: Correct me if I am wrong, but if the original rivets were 0.150" in diameter, and these are replaced by 4mm, then as 4mm is roughly 0.1575, then the brake shoe holes will have to be reamed out to do a correct job, will they not?


Uncle Joe
There are many jobs on a car that require precision engineering, this aint one of them!
With a crude mechanical fixing like a rivet its ok for holes in the shoes to be slightly bigger than the rivet, as the rivet will expand when its struck with the punch. In mass production you can't afford any delays, so the production engineers would always ensure that things were engineered to keep the line running at max speed, if the rivets were a interference fit (just right but tight in your terms) you would inevitably get odd rivets that would not fit in holes, and you loose time on the line retro fitting.
We may be had to clean the odd hole out using 4mm rivets, I can't remember

Charles
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UKdave2002
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charles

Many thanks , 4mm will be fine just measure the holes and they ar very slightly over 4mm, check your PM's

Dave
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buzzy bee
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for drifting off topic uk dave but jsut wanted to say to charles, that he is interested in engineering, I am interested in all things victorian and pre victorian and my mate has a couple of steam engines.

Sounds like an interesting career, I was aiming to go into agricultural design but ended up wanting to fettle with metal and old cars!

Cheers

Dave
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charles: I'm not disputing you statement, having been involved with mass production techniques, but reading from the only British Standard that I can find (from 1951) regarding rivetting, and I quote "Rivet holes may be drilled or punched... since punched holes are generally rough they should be punched undersize and opened up to their final diameter by drilling or reaming....holes ought to have the mininum clearance practical... food for thought, is it not?

How about posting something about your model engineering under 'Off Topic' I'm sure that a lot of us would be interested! Maybe also another intro under 'introductions?'

Have a look at the topic 'best bodges' you might find something of intrest, also, what are your candidates for 'best engine ever?'

By the way, welcome to the forum! Glad to have you on board!

UJ
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Charles
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UJ
Engineering in mass production is always somewhat of a compromise, between budgets, assembly time, aesthetics etc, standards would of course be referenced, but not always at the beginning! As an engineer we have tolerances to play with, sometimes we would push them to the limits, but if you are a great engineer like Issigonis was, you could rewrite the text books.
Something as simple as riveting lining to shoes would be a compromises between, standards, assembly time and cost if you had to compromise in one area you could compensated in another.
Engineering is often more of an art than a science!

Charles
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charles, what you say is correct, and believe you me, I do appreciate the problems involved with mass production. As I said before, I have worked with it.

There is one thing that I must take issue with though, and I know full well that I am going to upset a lot of people with this comment. There is no dispute that Alec Issigonis was a famous engineer, there is also no doubt that he was a good engineer. But great? In my opinion, sorry guys, never!

There is no way on earth that he can be compared to some of the other British engineers, such as Edward Turner, and other 'edwardians.' If you then start to compare him to say, Henry Leland, then again, sorry guys, he's not even a toe rag in comparison. Laughing
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admin



Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 927

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Issigonis did a fine job designing and co-building his pre-war hillclimb special, prior to the Minor and Minis etc, so I'd definitely say he was a great within the world of automotive design, at the very least.

The Mini and Minor were both pretty revolutionary designs, so compared to other car designers he is up there with certainly the top percentage I suspect, especially as with these designs he had to fit in with direction from the management, bean counters, and so on. Didn't he have a revolutionary (boxer was it?) engine designed for the MM, only for it to be shelved in preference for the wheezy s/v Morris engine?

Rick
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you look at Issigonis by himself, then yes, most people would say that he is a great. In some ways, this cant be denied. After all, there are a lot of cars being produced today that follow his front wheel drive/transverse engine concept, in spite of its limitations. But, by no means all cars follow this concept, which does reduce his greatness somewhat. Would he be in the top ten? Possibly, but low down if he was.

If you want to look at a great engineer, in my opinion the greatest, then look at Henry Leland. In spite of the fact that he founded two well known car companies, most people on this forum will have never even heard his name, but virtually every single car that exists today incorporates his legacy. And certainly every car that has been manufactured since ??? Shocked
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