Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[Uncle Joe]

Some of you know that I have been gathering information on this subject. So here is the first article, which will be updated later, with names and final results. Already now, I can say that tere have been a couple of changes!

[b]Introduction[/b]

All of the following information has been received from various sources, and is simply a compilation of this. It is all based on experiences that other people have had, and have been kind enough to share. To those who have contributed, a big thank you. Without you, it would not have been possible!

Originally, I had thought of comparing all of these types of paint that are on today’s market. However, this proved to be difficult, as for many I couldn’t get any feedback. So it ended up being between 4 different ones, until an outsider turned up, making it 5. I am deliberately not going to publicly mention any brands by name, mainly due to the fact that I am not sure of the legal aspects of doing so. I will however, rank them according to the feedback, which now totals several hundred correspondences!

[b]Results.[/b]

1: This was the outsider that surprised me, due to the fact that it had zero negative comments. It was also surprising due to the fact that it is not a Rust Preventative, but still worked! A number of replies pointed out that it could be improved by adding an extra pre-treatment, as well as an extra post-treatment. However, no-one had tried this, and I was therefore unable to confirm any improvement. Its big benefit was that it can be used anywhere on a car, even bodywork.

2: This was the only rust treatment that got no negative comments. It is a three stage treatment, but all of the users that contacted me had added an extra stage. Most people also praised the manufacturers for making the correct application information easily available, which no doubt added to its success. Curiously, it was also one of the cheapest.

3: This three stage treatment got no negative comments regarding rust, but a couple regarding other things. One of these was the fact that the manufacturers didn’t make the second stage, (Zinc Oxide paint). The other was that that one user considered that it could be too toxic to use safely.

4: For chassis, a 4 stage paint, for underbody 3. Comments about this one were equally divided. 50% called it a waste of money, with rust appearing within twelve months in one case. The other 50% thought it brilliant, with no rust appearing within 5 years.

5: This single stage treatment was an absolute disaster! No positive replies whatsoever were received!

[b]Comments.[/b]

Obviously, I’m sitting on a lot more information than I have given here. From this information, I have drawn the following conclusions. In reverse order:

I suspect that the problem with the 5th product is the manufacturers. Not because the product is bad, but because for some reason they do not give out the correct information as regards product usage. I did contact them via email regarding this, but they did not even have the courtesy to reply. Shame on them! I do suspect however, that if it was made into a 3 or 4 stage product, it would work as well as the others. But, as I cant prove this, I have to stick with the evidence from the replies.

The manufacturers of the 4th product have a similar problem to the 5th, regarding information, although they give quite a lot, unfortunately it is still not enough. The difference between the two groups seems to be that the successful users have been able to work out what information is missing.

Product manufacturers 2 and 3 score simply because they give clear and concise information. This means that success is more assured.

[rustyreks]

Uncle Joe cant be any reason why brand names cant be stated we are only recommending our personal opinion of what we think of these products whatever products are used they will only be effective if used according to the manufacturers instructions.If as much of the actual rust has been eliminated either by sand blasting wire brushing or sanding then followed by an etch primer or nuetralised in some way and then painted with por 15 or black enamel paint you should get a good result.I have even wire brushed steel coated the surface with lanogard a lanoline based oil another oil that can be used is owatrol; or penetrol and then dried the surface with a heat gun and then painted with black spray enamel and the surface hasnt rusted in over 12 months in hindsite a primer first after the oil treatment would be better as you require less top coats.Paint used must be enamel as water based paint will react with the oil. And it mixs in with the enamel paint acting as a rust inhibitor. Remembering that no matter how good of a job you have done in rust removal as soon as that protective layer is scratched to the metal it will start to rust.On my fordson i have used a product called rust guard that nuetralises the rust i wire brushed and cleaned and then painted with rustguard and then painted with black enamel that was about a 15months ago and no rust has appeared except where i scratched the surface. Friends of mine have sandblasted old locomotives they have restored and painted it with the wattyl rust kill and have had good results.I wonder if there is a best method i think following a 3 step or 4 step plan seems to be the safest method after removing as much rust as possible would be my recommendation.

[Uncle Joe]

Thanks rusty, your comments are much appreciated. I will be naming the products later, along with the "scores" but I would like to see a few more replies first.

So come on everybody!

[Charles]

UJ Suggested I had a look at this thread to se if I could identify the products. To be honest I haven’t a clue!

You have to realise that when running a business you don’t have time to do this kind of research. We would get to know about products via reps or trade counters and if you find a product that works for you i.e. is better or cheaper or quicker than your current one, you change. As I have said we used POR15 to paint small welded repairs, prior to that we used an oxide primer, a couple of cellulose top coats followed by underseal. In both cases we wipe the metal with phosphoric acid prior to any paint being applied. We changed to POR15 simply because it saved time and is robust enough to have on the underside of a car, I don’t think it was any better than our original method, although I’m not a big fan of underseal .

The one thing we never did was weld or paint on anything but bright steel and as I said even that had a phosphoric acid wipe before painting. I suspect the reason why you have conflicting results in some cases would be down to preparation and peoples differing expectations about what surfaces (i.e. rusty) you can apply the products.

Charles

[Uncle Joe]

Well Charles, you are bang on as regards the prearation, or rather lack of it giving conflicting results. I believe that some of this can be put down to the fact that information from the manufactures is not stated clearly enough. An example of this: How many people have worked out EXACTLY how to prepare a surface? Only the successfull ones, apparently!

As far as the products go, in no particular order they were Hammerite, Eastwood, Miracle paint, and POR 15. The fifth (the outsider) we can leave until later...it will surprise everyone!

It was the fifth product that eventually lead me to the importance of preparation, as well as 'surface keying'. Sorry, I cant think of a better expression. A chemist I know explained the difference between the 4 and the fifth, chemically speaking. From this information, I found another product, that should be better than the others. This will be the one that I will be using on my Lincoln!

Comments?

UJ

[UKdave2002]

UJ , I’d be interested in your chemists friends view was regarding the SPL (or any other chemical dip) process striping back to bare steel, i.e. is the chemical bath going to do the job ? I am totally convinced about the EPD dip for priming and can see how it would be brilliant on new metal, but don’t really understand the chemistry of the stripping and cleaning process.

Dave

[Uncle Joe]

UK, I'll have a chat to him when I see him, and see what he says.

I would expect that he will say something like I would. The dips will remove all the contaminants from the metal, but will leave some remains lying loose in hidden cavities. I suppose though, that unless he (we) can talk to SPL, and see the process 'live' everything will be nothing more than speculation.

One thing he did tell me before. Apparently, to prevent rust reoccurring, the bond between coating and substrate is important. The coting should not 'lie' on the metal, but be as much a part of it as possible. ie as little air as possible between them. the four have long molecular chains, which makes for more air in between than the fifth, which has short molecular chains. I hope this makes sense to you all!


UJ

[UKdave2002]

UJ, the one thing I found with them was they were very open and keen to talk to interested parties. They appreciate the scepticism that many people will have. So would be very interesting to hear the views of a chemist, afraid my chemistry doesn’t stretch past GCSE level!

[Uncle Joe]

UK, would it be possible for you to find out exactly how they remove lodged contaminents from hidden cavities?

My chemistry didnt get past 3rd year, so it is on a strictly 'need to know' basis.

UJ

[Old-Nail]

Would it be by sonic vibration?
I hear that you can have things like Carbs 'Sonic blasted' to clear blocked inner passageways perhaps there is a variation on that?

[Uncle Joe]

As far as I understand, they put the bodyshell in a bath to remove all the contaminents. I can accept that submersion will remove everything, even in the hidden cavities.

But these cavities usually have some place that the waste can lodge when it is removed, as well as no natural drainage for this waste to come out of. If there is still something remaining in a 'trap' on the hidden surfaces, then not only can it not be seen, any subsequent treatment wont adhere to these areas, because they aren't clean, are they?

Goodness, I'm finding this difficult to explain! I think I must take a refresher course in English!

UJ

[buzzy bee]

Hi

Just an Idea, I may be totally off the mark here as I really have no idea but do they acid dip by any chance, if they use a strong enough acid, most stuff will be removed on contact but what happens when you get air pockets?

Cheers

Dave

[UKdave2002]

I don’t know if the tanks have ultrasonic cleaning, which are unbelievable as oldnail said you stick a grubby old carb in with a very mild cleaning solution and it comes out spotless!.
I do know that SPL look at the structure and then drill subtly placed holes to allow fluid / air in and out.

[Charles]

UJ, As you have done a lot of research in to the subject of corrosion rectification and have a chemists contact, why don’t you contact SPL (there is an email address on the web site) and give us an neutral analyses of how they treat and protect steel compared to your more traditional methods.
There are a few people who have expressed an interest in using SPL, including a pal of mine who is restoring a Healey 3000 (yes I have encouraged him to join the forum but he is not as IT literate as us 60 some things!!). What do you think? Could be another chapter for your book.

Charles

[Uncle Joe]

Charles, I'm aiming the book at the people who are on a low budget, but still want to do the best job possible. To this end, I am only including the low budget things that are known to work. Irrespective of how good SPL's process is, doesn't exactly fit that bill. At present, I'm still certain that there are cheaper methods that are equally as good, if not better.

Thats not to say that I wont contact them though, maybe I'm in a good position to discuss things with them?

UJ