Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[baconsdozen]

A overheard remark at a car show made me think.
Someone was looking at a very smart and shiny vehicle and told his companion that the owner didn't know one end of a mig from another and hadn't a clue if the engine was overhead cam or side valve.
I spoke to the owner a while later and got the impression he was right.All the owner seemed interested in was telling anyone who'd listen how much he'd spent on his car,which it seemed he did nothing to other than wash.Signs on the front and back of the car warned people not to touch and although I appreciate the effort in cleaning a vehicle I wonder if this alienates people who are wandering round these shows.
We are all different,and each to his own but I'd rather talk to the guy who's rebuilt or restored a car by getting his hands dirty than the guy whos simply opened his wallet.I admire the guys (and there are quite a few on here) who can answer quite specific queries and have grovelled under cars finding work rounds and fixes rather than simply sent it of to someone else.
Or,maybe I'm wrong.What do others think?
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Thirty years selling imperial hand tools for old machinery(Now happily retired).

[Riley Blue]

I don't have a problem with cheque book restorations; it's up to the individual what they spend their money on and many people don't have the mechanical knowledge or facilities to undertake a restoration themselves.

Thinking of the more exotic classics, I would guess that many, if not most, have been restored and are maintained by marque specialists. Do we look down on them because of that? I don't think we do.

I know several owners whose cars appear only at local shows and are always pristine and I'm as happy to talk to them as I am to talk to someone whose car is a 'work in progress' - it would be a sad world if we only accepted classic enthusiasts who were experienced spanner men.

[Rick]

Owners of old cars at shows range from your "cheque book restorer", who wouldn't know one end of a screwdriver from the other, through to the die-hard relentless DIYer who achieves miracles under a tarpaulin in his or her back garden.

However the one thing they have in common is an interest in old cars, so I've no problem with anyone who chooses to run and preserve an old car, regardless of how they actually go about achieving it. I only lose interest when a car is restored and locked away in the hope of financial gain at a future re-sale.

I suppose I've a foot in several camps. I had to get the bulk of the work done on the Dodge by an outside company just to get it done. However I spent a great deal of time at the workshop helping out, sourcing parts, helping out with the project management, and 16 years (and running) of research to get it done right. I can't see me ever doing a project of that scale again, most of the time I do my own spannering and only outsource things I can't do myself to the "professionals".

As Riley says, there'd be few top-end cars around if it wasn't for the specialists being employed by those fortunate enough to have very deep pockets (lucky people).

The most interesting people to speak to, I find, are those that have known the car in their family for a generation or two, and can tell the car's story through firsthand experiences.

As for "do not touch" signs, I'm not keen but I now understand why people do it. I took the Dodge to Stoneleigh for Race Retro, its first outing, and left it there for three days. One morning I went in as usual, to find that someone with dirty, muddy boots had been clambering on the painted steps for a peek inside, scratching all the paint. For that reason I now put "please do not touch" signs on each step. Most people are respectful of other people's property, but a minority are basically stupid and don't care, even among the ranks of old-vehicle enthusiasts sadly.

RJ
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[MikeEdwards]

I think if it saves another vehicle, a cheque-book restoration is better than no restoration at all. I had the bodywork restored on my car, because I didn't have the facilities, skill or time to do it myself, and I wondered if the car would ever be worth more than I paid to have that part done, forgetting about all the other costs. But because I wanted it back on the road instead of sitting in the lock-up for another decade, it was worth doing. I'm doing as much as I can on the current rebuild, but not sure where I'll have to call in others.

Knowing how a lot of people today have no respect for other peoples property (doesn't that make me sound old?) it's always a worry when you leave the vehicle somewhere, and it's one of the reasons I stopped doing certain shows - vehicles all parked close together, people trying to cram pushchairs through gaps they clearly won't fit through, leaning on the door to look inside without thinking about the zip on their coat, and so on. Just because I paid someone to paint the car doesn't mean that it doesn't matter if it gets scratched.

I haven't met anyone who has a car at a show and knows nothing about it, though I have met a lot of people with very nice classics who hardly ever (if at all) go to shows with them - they've bought them to drive, not to show.

[lowdrag]

As one of the people whose ability is purely mechanical (not really brilliant at that either) and not at all bodywork, I understand that there are the two ends of the spectrum, and encounter them day in and day out. What I don't understand is people throwing money down the drain on cheque book restorations, because all they are doing, while burning money, is massaging their massive egos.

We've been looking for a Spridget/Spitty recently for the vertically challenged SWMBO, and it seems that cars are just not selling, despite prices being dropped. A Midget with £20,000 in it, available at £7,500 but no takers, a Sprite rebuilt with a new shell and stage 2 engine, now back on Fleabay (been on sale for at least four months now) with a reserve of £5,500 (the shell alone wasn't far short of that before prepping) having not attracted one bid with a reserve of £6,000 last week. There are bargains out there for the canny buyer, and will be more so as winter approaches.

That said, and having had a rather obscure car built from scratch, I've never put a "do not touch" sign on , and was not upset, despite having put protective pads under the wings, to find a dimple or two after the Festival this year where the stones had missed the pads. All part of the patina and character of a car. It's now sold and the new owner loves it anyway.

But it is the Sunday warriors, who check the weather five times before venturing out, that irk me, whether they did the restoration themselves or paid for it. Use it or lose it my motto.

[baconsdozen]

I hope I've started a discussion and not an argument!
I prefer talking to the oily nailers,sometimes you can pick up a few tips and its always nice to swap stories and ideas.
I've no problem with someone who simply pays others to improve his car but when its done just as a status symbol and not out of an interest in the car itself it leaves me a bit cold.
However it takes all sorts and some restorations are only possible if large amounts of wonga are thrown about and I'd much much rather see a car rescued than allowed to rot back into the ground however its done.
_________________
Thirty years selling imperial hand tools for old machinery(Now happily retired).

[Uncle Alec]

I'm with Riley541. Room for all. All enthusiasts, or they wouldn't have bought in the first place. If loaded with dosh, what better to spend on? I do think the money-out wallahs have missed out on the greatest pleasure though - the knowledge that your workmanship and effort has returned the vehicle to use.

[Jim.Walker]

It is not the money spent or how it was spent which turns me off. It is the "SHOW ONLY" vehicles which often arrive on trailers. Many restored beyond original new condition with polished brake pipes, carbs and many other items originally left "raw" or painted. They would be better preserved in museums, except that many museums would refuse them as over-restored or untypical specimens.
I do sometimes go to shows. Often only to gain free entry to the accompanying auto jumble etc. But I am not interested in displaying my cars and motorbikes. I get my kick out of using them. They have been restored or tidied up once and if necessary they can be again!
Now I suppose I might have upset some, but I will not apologise!
Jim.
P.S. I still muse at times about a Norton Dominator which won "Best at Show". I had it first hand from the owner that the engine did not work!
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Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then!

[Roger-hatchy]

I agree Jim

Show only cars,
Only ever out on Trailers, Why
If they don't want to drive it sell it to someone who will enjoy it.

Also Cheque book restorers, no problem with that either.

What gets my gall is those who pretend to have done all the work themselves, when you get talking even simple Techy (as far as I can go)
they haven't a clue and dissapear

Had one example at the CVCM with an E Type, booming out for all to hear what he had and hadn't done.
All the welding, all the engine repairs, all the re-wiring etal.
Then when he saw under the bonnet of the DLM was shocked, asked if it was safe to have the starter motor brushes exposed.
The item he was referring to sits on top of my engine and charges the battery,
He just couldn't grasp it when explained to him that it is a generator and Had to be told what a generator is.

Roger.

PS. Talking of cheque book restorations, good to see the vehicle is kept alive.
But some go overboard, I am thinking of the VW Split screen camper at JD classics ?? £500,000 ?? when asked why " Because I can"
At least the vehicle was saved but I'd need armed guards around it 24/7

[Nic Jarman]

It is worth bearing in mind that these "cheque book" restorers inject a lot of money into the classic car industry. This keeps highly skilled craftsmen doing what they do best and when I want some body work done there are enough of these chaps to do my stuff.
It is not upto me or anyone else to tell others how to treat their cars or what to do to them. Maybe some time in the future there will be "listed" cars as there are buildings and the man from the ministry will tell me to change the colour of my 8's engine as it is not an original colour. Untill then it is my car, my engine and I will paint it any colour I like and I will have it done by who ever I like.
If Coco Chanel wished to swan around in a Talbot Lago T150 CSS then that is her choice ( lucky b**** ).
There is room for all of us.
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1936 Morris 8 Series 1
1973 MGB roadster
1977 MG Midget 1500
Dax Rush

[lowdrag]

[quote="Uncle Alec"]I'm with Riley541. All enthusiasts, or they wouldn't have bought in the first place. quote]

Sadly, not so. Any look around will show the number of people who think of classic cars as an investment today. I mean, a VW Samba fetching over $120,000? And in the world of motobikes, who would believe this?



Estimate over £500,000? (it didn't sell by the way)

I see so many people who have no interest in cars but who are buying because the interest rates are so low and they justify buying a car on these grounds. I wonder if the next 1991 crash is just around the corner? I don't think so personally, and won't until interest rates start moving up enough to stop people buying cars. Then perhaps they'll return into the hands of the real aficianados.

[Keith D]

When I was young I had a wife, four kids and a huge scary mortgage. Every single thing I did to keep my hobby alive and functioning HAD to be done by spend ing as little money as possible. Consequently I used to turn my nose up at the cheque book restorers.

The years passed. Suddenly my kids are grown up and my wife is back in the workforce. I have no school bills. I have money to spend on my cars! But I find that I'm now experienced in my job and I am spending huge quantities of time 1000 miles away from home, working for months at a time on construction of minesites. Any work that I want done to my vehicles now has to be done by professional restorers!

Finally, now I'm retired, I find that I cannot crawl over and under a car as I did when I was twenty years old! Especially lying on my back trying to fix wiring under the dashboard! I have to employ professionals!

A good friend of mine is in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. He is an old car nut like the rest of us. He HAS to be a chequebook restorer.

You pays your money and takes your choice! They do have a very valid place in our hobby.

Regarding signs at shows - We have signs over here to put on our windscreens that read:- "Old cars are like wives - If she's not yours, then don't touch!" I have one of these signs and use it! I am fed up with having proud parents wrenching my doors open to sit their feral little monsters inside my car to be photographed and pulling at every switch and lever that they can reach!

Keith

[Jim.Walker]

Perhaps I am biased in my views about "classic cars" etc. by the fact that I am old enough to remember most popular mass produced cars launched from about 1945, as new.
Very few proudly displayed cars (and motorbikes etc.) at shows honestly represent their as new condition. And those that do are very unlikely to win an award.
Owners, in those days were proud of their new cars after years of austerity and mostly kept them immaculate. Some added choice aftermarket accessories to enhance them. But I do not remember people polishing or chroming bits left as natural or unpainted until shows became popular.
To my mind I think those polished items move a vehicle into the "Custom" category. In which they should be judged.
Jim.
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Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then!

[Bayliss Thomas]

For years I have read and heard the old adage : always buy the best example you can afford.
So with that in mind I'm quite happy to leave the restoration enthusiasts to do their thing and be grateful that there are still people who like nothing more than to bring a partial wreak back to life.
Me? I do what I can when I can simply enjoying a great hobby and interest

[smiffy220]

I have nothing against cheque book restorers, as long as they're still approachable. I just like to see the old cars still on the road and being loved. I have some basic mechanical knowledge, and just love old cars. If I attempted bodywork however, I would be reducing values on some nice cars tenfold!! I had to pay someone to sort out the rust and vinyl roof and headlining on my Manta, as it was specialist work, and a lovely job they did. I now appreciate the car and enjoy it.
What got me was at a recent trip to JD Classics, they had an old VW camper in for restoration. The bespoke wood trim alone was costing circa £20k, and they anticipated the total restoration being circa £400k. For a VW Camper I thought, why? But they explained that the guy was at least spending his money, he was keeping 7 guys employed for a year there, and wanted this car to his specific tastes. Then I just thought, good point, good luck to him!! (Although he may well be a complete **** to speak to, I have no idea!!).
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Born to rally, forced to work!

1980 Opel Manta 2.0 SR Berlinetta
1934 Morris Cowley Four (my late fathers)